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Thread: Question for California PI's

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    Jeremy D Maurer - is offline
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    Question for California PI's

    Okay, I currently work under our Corp. PI license. I am in the process of obtaining my own, so that I may legally carry and continue to work on Fugitive Recovery.

    Anyways, the BSIS states that once you have your Open Exposed permit, that you must carry your pistol in a holster. Further down they state you can not carry a badge (edit: only if you are performing a regulated assignment as a licensed PI), because it might give people the person you are a government official or Police Officer, which you are not.

    What is to stop people from calling the police every time I walk down a hall, with a loaded firearm on my hip? Why does the BSIS also state that a Patrol Operator and Guard with Firearm permit wear a uniform? Last time I checked, they wore uniforms looking like police officers, and they all had badges???

    Does this make sense to anyone? Is it illegal to wear a badge as a Private Investigator (edit: performing unregulated assignments) in California, and if so where in the law does it state that? Just because the BSIS says it's not appropriate, does not mean it is against the law.

    Your insight please.

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    Jeremy D Maurer - is offline
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    Think about this.

    The BSIS regulates PI's and Security Guards who utilize Firearms. If you are in Executive Protection or Fugitive Recovery, you better have your gun in an approved manner.

    I know how Johnny Law would look at a firearm on the waist. But when you do fugitive recovery and you don't have a CCW what do you do?

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    Jeremy D Maurer - is offline
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    Seriously

    I was rushed to finish my last post, but I want to elaborate.

    Hypothetical:

    I am a licensed PI, and I have a BSIS open exposed firearm permit. I apply to get my CCW, however am denied because of blah blah blah.

    Having also been trained and maintaining PC 832 Mods A, B & C I go out and secure some bail bondsmen to give me their bail skips. California Law is pretty clear that I can apprehend the bail fugitives and I am also permitted to carry a firearm in such a situation.

    Now how does one protect themselves from being wrongly or falsely accused while trying to perform their job? The BSIS states a Private Investigator may not wear a badge. Security personnel may wear a badge in the course of their uniform. What is the difference? Secondly, the BSIS states that a PPO or PI wearing an open exposed firearm, needs to be in uniform. What is the PI's uniform? Suit?

    I'm having an attorney research it, but the BSIS does not make law. They do not enforce law either. They regulate licensing along with Consumer Affairs.

    I am seriously looking for a solution not a debate or argument.

    Your thoughts and comments please.

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    Without looking at the law, I can already assume this.

    a) A non-uniformed person with any exposed badge carrying an exposed handgun under their suit jacket would appear to the public to be either a detective or law enforcement agent.

    b) A non-uniformed person without an exposed badge carrying an exposed handgun under their open suit jacket would appear to the public to be either a detective, law enforcement agent, private investigator, business person, or anyone that may have a permit to carry.

    b) Any uniformed person with an exposed handgun would appear to the public to be licensed or authorized to carry the weapon.

    Therefore, the law seems to be on appearances to the public.

    Solution:

    Do not mix your appearances between performing as a PI versus a Bail Enforcement Agent or Secuirty Guard.

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Can someone point me to a link as to where it spells out the laws for exposing a PI badge purchased through IPIU. I can't seem to find the answer.
    thanks,
    Dave

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Quote Originally Posted by David Fontana View Post
    Can someone point me to a link as to where it spells out the laws for exposing a PI badge purchased through IPIU. I can't seem to find the answer.
    thanks,
    Dave
    This topic was authored many years ago before the Badge Licensing Laws Forum was opened.

    Go here:
    http://www.ipiu.org/forums/forumdisp...ysprune=&f=125

    Then review the topic for California.

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Ok this is the way I see it after trying to compel everything I’ve read.
    I’m a retired Deputy Sheriff, I carry a sheriff badge that say’s retired. There are also badge holders in our county ie; County Assessor, Building Official, Probation Officer, and maybe some others like the DA or CPS.
    I believe (in my opinion) as long as you identify yourself to who you are with the name on the badge confirming this you would not be impersonating a peace officer. Example: Show your badge and tell them you are a Private Investigator. (Either licensed or and independent contractor for… lets say IPIU). Now if you just flashed a badge and said you are here investigating an assignment that would be impersonating a peace officer.
    Again this is my opinion,
    Dave

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Im a FRA in California who is getting his PI License. From everything I have read, it would appear that PI's in Ca cannot carry badges saying PI on them. I carry a badge and firearm however (along with cuffs, flashlight, extra ammo etc.) in my duties as a FRA. There is no law about not carrying a badge as a FRA (In the 1299 laws it states you cannot carry one that says you are law enforcement) and a loophole in the CA Penal Code allows FRA's to carry their Firearm without any sort of certification. Its somewhere in the 12000's and it states that nothing in the section (about openly carrying a LOADED firearm) shall prohibit anyone from making a lawful arrest from carrying a firearm. So people making lawful arrests (citizens arrests, arresting with warrants as I do etc.) can carry a loaded firearm. The key is LAWFUL arrest. And whenever I carry a firearm openly (I do not carry concealed as that would be breaking the law) I ALWAYS have my badge identifying myself as a "Fugitive Apprehension Agent" so people do not get nervous. I typically have handcuffs also. Most people assume Im law enforcement through no fault of my own. I am within all the legal bounds. I do not have anything identifying me as Law Enforcement so I am fine. California can be a bit tricky.

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    just go to nles.com get a custom badge an say intelligence officer

  10. #10

    Re: Question for California PI's

    You don't have to go there. IPIU sells really nice badges and wallets .

  11. #11
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    Re: Question for California PI's

    yeah , for nearly triple the price

  12. #12

    Re: Question for California PI's

    you get what you pay for.

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Opperman View Post
    you get what you pay for.
    Not in this case. IPIU upmarks the price quite a bit. I get discounts on all my badges through one of my suppliers, so its been awhile since I paid full price. But $109 for a badge and wallet, even a custom badge (that style and finish is like $60 without any discounts and the badge is like $20 at most) is pretty expensive. Ive used Chief, Galls, NLES etc. They all have your standard badges and you are able to get it saying whatever you want. Keep in mind, however, that my badges have to say something WAY different than the IPIU's. Im just speaking from personal experience. Dont mean to insult the IPIU or anything like that.

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    Re: Question for California PI's

    Welcome Thomas, and thank you for your engaging comments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas R Rowbottom View Post
    Not in this case. IPIU upmarks the price quite a bit.
    I think Ed said it with fewer words than anyone. Yes, you do get what you pay for. But are we only speaking about a difference of $40 to $50 in price alone?

    So what do IPIU members get for the extra money? And are we comparing walk-in stores or internet stores? Are we comparing apples for apples, or apples and something different than what you have held in your hands? And do the badges have a custom engraved number that is recorded internally in case it needs to be reported to all federal, state, and local law enforcement in case of theft or loss?

    I disagree in part with your assessment because I have seen what IPIU pays wholesale before they mark up a nominal profit. I think what you have purchased and what you have seen is quite different in part with what IPIU sells as a combined badge and custom stiched leather wallet or case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas R Rowbottom View Post
    But $109 for a badge and wallet, even a custom badge (that style and finish is like $60 without any discounts and the badge is like $20 at most) is pretty expensive.
    I do not think anyone here will disagree with the notion that $109 is expensive (even though it includes free insurance, shipping, and handing). No doubt whatsoever. (For the record, IPIU sells badge/wallet combos from $69 to $90 when they are on a special sale).

    Excluding $7 to 10 for packaging, handling, and shipping (yes, the raw costs of materials, labor, postage, and insurance are within that range verus buying it at the IPIU store) - using your math, most of the badge/wallet combinations are sold for $79 to $99, leaving the wallet portion to be between $40 to $60 retail? If so, then you are correct in your math. The custom made wallet is made by the most respected law enforcement leather goods manuafacturer in the USA. It is of the highest quality you will ever hold. It is Made-in-USA, and comes with a Lifetime Guarantee - of which no one has ever had to replace theirs.

    You can find cheap wallets everywhere, but you will never buy a better custom leather stitched wallet like the types that IPIU ONLY sells. The manufacturer has been in business since the early 1900's and they must have the actual badge in order to custom stitch the wallet for a perfect and lifetime fit - which is something you will not get from over the counter wallets.

    There is an actual POLL going for the last nine years (since the web site first went live). The poll is about as honest as anyone can get. But the poll is only for those who have actually compared what they hold in their hands with what they see anywhere else. And the scores are extremely high.

    Yes, IPIU could probably add another $50-$75 on the badge plating alone because there are scores of LEOS who have bought their badges for $150 and up. But IPIU's badges are custom made and come in three styles - economy silver, Silver with Gold Banner, and Gold with Silver Banner. You could probably buy these badges (but not the copyrighted and trademarked design) for around $60 to $70. Then add a the same custom fitted wallet for another $50 to $60.


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    Re: Question for California PI's

    To all,

    This entire topic thread will be edited so as to bring it current and into conformity. Do not be surprised if you see some of the posts moved to either the Badge Licensing Laws Forum under the California Topic, or perhaps to the Badge-Wallet Forum for further discussion of the custom badge and custom leather wallet comparisons and pricing.

    1. The reason is we do not offer any badge or wallet for sale to the general public without verification of its use, even when it is sold through our PI Store.

    2. As for the open discussion on badge laws, we only permit those who have at least a Level 1-Professional access - which includes regulated professionals, to have access to the one-on-one interpretative help in the Badge Licensing Laws forum. The general public is not permitted there because of the potential misuse of the statutes we discuss.




    Summary:

    The author of this topic posted these questions six years ago, before we opened up the Badge Licensing Laws Forum, which is the only web area that offers one-on-one legal aid for those in the profession.

    If any Level 1 Guest wishes to have their access upgraded to Level 1-Professional or higher, please use the Contact Us Link at the bottom of any forum page.



    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas R Rowbottom View Post
    From everything I have read, it would appear that PI's in Ca cannot carry badges saying PI on them.
    Although the California Licensing Board states licensed private investigators cannot display a badge in the performance of their "regulated" assignment, the California general statutes and the more recent federal statutes contain language which does permit licensed PI's to use a specific style of badge while performing unregulated cases in California. The details are in the Badge Licensing Laws forum.
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