Alleged Stalker turns out to be Private Investigator

[Robert Donovan]

Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:

Father Fires Shots In Air To Scare Man:

Police said reports of shots fired last Friday turned out to be a father firing a gun into the air to scare off what he believed was a man stalking his daughter, the Fergus Falls Daily Journal reported.

Authorities said the alleged stalker was actually a private investigator hired for a worker's compensation investigation, the newspaper reported.

[Kathleen Padgett]

Wow, great topic. I think this would serve as a warning and reminder to all of us to be prepared, informed of the risks and cautious/alert at all times. I'm sure that it would apply to a number of other types of assignments in addition to insurance investigations. Thanks for sharing that story.

[William Brassfield]

Just when you thought only the repo man gets shot at.

[Don Menard]

Will,

Funny!

This is a great reminder for all. No matter what the job there still is a possibility of trouble.

[Sara E Pickett]

I agree with Kathleen.
What a great story we should all relate to Robert.
This is a good reference for the very near future as we trainees venture out into the PI's working world. Self defence and other related classes are becoming more likely for this PI trainee.
Thanks for the eye opener Robert.

[Michele Maconship]

I think this point has brought home to all trainees the necessity of being alert and aware of the potential dangers involved in each and every assignment. Honestly, I never would have thought of a routine work comp surveillance as having any danger at all associated with it. I will learn to keep my eyes and ears open from now on!

Thanks again for the great tip, and may you all have a blessed day.

[May K. Toney]

Thanks for the story, Robert. It was informative and a bit unsettling.

I've worked in the insurance arena for several years and have used outside PI's quite frequently. They are highly skilled and truly know their stuff. Of all the cases referred to select vendors in 20 years, I can only recall two instances where the PIs blew their cover (and my case). One was because the PI posed as a city official which, I understand, is a no no anyway. The other was because the subject was an ex FBI agent and police officer who knew exactly what to expect.

Besides the obvious safety issues, the most disturbing aspect of this story is that the PI was totally oblivious to the fact that he or she was detected ...more than once (i.e.; "stalker"). Equally hard to believe is the PI never knew, noticed or even suspected that something was amiss. In my mind, that significantly increased the risk of exposure and/or bodily harm.

I've sat through many presentations given by PI vendors and the one thing that's always emphasized is their need for detailed information about the subject, his or her residential area and their behavior patterns. Any sudden or significant change in the subject's behavior or patterns suggests that they expect the surveillance, received a tip and/or detected the PI. In such a case, the PI was to either switch to an accomplice or terminate the activity.

It seems that one or more safety precautions were breached here. The story is an excellent example of what can happen when you do.

[Kathleen Padgett]

The above story is an excellent one. Thanks for sharing your experiences, really good information to keep in mind as we are in training.

Kathie

[RoseAnn Weingart]

Thanks for the story. As a trainee, this will be invaluable information.

[Mr Jose Bonavich Jr]

Robert,

I think I may want to spend some time practicing survellience before I actually try it in real life . Getting shot at, is not on my agenda

[Robert Smith -]

Great, quick article. Though you can gather that there really is no such thing as a safe job these days. Anyone can become a target.

[Bryan McManis -]

What I find scary about this story is that you have to be aware of your situation. Especially if you are a male following a female. This points out the need and use of Females in the field. A female following a female would not raise fears first rattle out of the box.

A male in society is viewed with suspicion in almost every situation. A female is not viewed as a threat 99% of the time. If you are a male, you are being stupid to think you are invisible. Reactions of people in the field will tell you how well you are remaining invisible as far as being "burned" If you are burned it would be foolish to think you are invisible when you have gone to the other end of the spectrum and now are a "threat".

In addition, another thought is with out all the facts how do you react to a real act of violence in the field. The person firing a shot into the air is illegal period. You have to assume that if this person was" viewed" as a" stalker" there was more than one act that led up to this event. The person who was doing the shooting should have dialed 911 and had the police challenge this person.

Then you get into the area of carrying a firearm. I do carry a concealed firearm and I have a license to do so. I hope I never find myself in a shoot out because one PI is reckless and the other person is taking the law into his own hands. Surveillance is not as easy as it sounds. I have done foot and vehicle surveillance with a Female and we are always a couple when doing this type of activity. A couple is not perceived as a threat very quickly and it gives you the advantages of two heads are better then one.

[Michele Maconship]

I agree with you, Bryan, in that there seems to be a great advantage to having a male-female investigative team. Many activities, such as telephone pretext and surveillance can be performed by a female without arousing as much suspicion as a male would. And a couple performing a foot surveillance would have an advantage over a single investigator in that "four" eyes are better than two.

[Mr Jose Bonavich Jr]

Hey everyone,

Here's an interesting story.

A friend and I were in Germany, Munich to be precise at the Oktoberfest. It was late in the evening and we were walking out to the fairgrounds where all the beer tents had been set up. We noticed a young man following us, so we crossed the street and started "window shopping" ...we noticed that he crossed the street also and seemed to have a few friends with him...Well we decided to make sure he saw us looking at him and then crossed the street a second time....He backed off but kept following us from the other side of the street. Being in a foreign country and not speaking the language we decided the best thing to do would be to find a public place or a police officer. As luck would have it, we saw an office on the next block so we approached him and asked if he spoke English, he did but not much. We indicated the young man and his friends had been following us, as soon as they saw the officer they disappeared into the alleys and we didn't see them again.

I suppose we were instantly recognized as tourists, probably even Americans and unfortunately Americans are considered prime targets for robbery in some European countries.

It was only because we both have a tendency to be "suspicious" of those around us that we even noticed the young man and his friends. Hopefully that trait will make me a better investigator

We probably wouldn't have been so suspicious if the young man and his friends had females with them. Would have just considered them "young couples" out for an evening on the town.

[Byron Burke II]

This is an excellent example of keeping your head on a swivel, being aware of whats going on around you, and expect the worst out of people.

[Michael Harris]

Thanks,

We need this kind of story every so often to keep us focused on potential dangers. We have so excited about helping people that we may have overlooked some of the dangers.

[Andre Scott]

Im glad I know that things do happen. I feel that in this profession you must allways be on top of your game.. This is a field where saftey and security are # 1..

[Amanda Monroe]

This is a great reminder for all. No matter what the job there still is a possibility of trouble

I think this said it all!

[Brenda Muller]

Robert, Thank you for sharing the Story, It will be a big help in our training and makes us more aware of what is around us.
I watch people all the time and I'm a pretty good judge of character and can hardly wait to learn more from our training.
Good evening to all
Brenda

[Karen Kiely]

The lesson of this story is that the investigator "BLEW HIS COVER". This story is a great lesson for us new trainees. Don't Blow your Cover! We can all be as careful as possible, but if we blow our cover, it is all for naught!




Karen Kiely

New Hampshire

[Franchesca Mares]

You have to assume that if this person was" viewed" as a" stalker" there was more than one act that led up to this event.

EXACTLY.. I agree with that.


Franchesca Mares

[Ken Rohrer]

Originally posted by Robert Donovan
Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:

From what I've been reading about fraud surveillance, if that PI had done his job by the book and law, he wouldn't have been shot at. The law says that a PI can only record what he/she sees from a public location. Wandering around a home or neighborhood or looking in someone's back yard doesn't qualify as a public location.

Can anyone with experience concur?

[Bryan McManis -]

Originally posted by Ken Rohrer

From what I've been reading about fraud surveillance, if that PI had done his job by the book and law, he wouldn't have been shot at. The law says that a PI can only record what he/she sees from a public location. Wandering around a home or neighborhood or looking in someone's back yard doesn't qualify as a public location.

Can anyone with experience concur?

Greetings Ken,

There is nothing to concur on in this example per say. The only fact from the information given is that of being shot at. The person who fired his weapon in the air was ILLEGALLY WRONG PERIOD. It is never justified to discharge a firearm into the air in any state EVER. If you clear leather you had better be willing and able to take a human life or don’t ever take it out. You should be hitting your target with extreme prejudice or don’t fire at all. For every time you miss your target you should be apologizing for not being good enough to carry a weapon. If the person does not die you should apologize because there is never a JUSTIFIABLE reason to JUST WOUND a person. There is no gray area. If they do not NEED to be DEAD then you should not be shooting at all ever.

Using a firearm is like a nuclear weapon. It has very long term lasting effects and consequences. The person in that case felt threatened. His life was not in danger and he had 911 to take care of that situation. He never called 911. He took matters into his own hands. The point of the story is that when you are doing your job correctly you are invisible. If you get burned end what you are doing. The fact that this person was viewed as a stalker meant that they were visible more then one time. And to make matters worse they were visible to the point of being perceived as a threat. That is a major failure. Do not find yourself going from invisible to a perceived threat.

In closing, part of being a professional is reading and knowing the laws that pertain to the task you are doing. There are laws for all the types of investigations that you will do. Each area of PI work is not new. It has been done for many years is down to a science and been contested in courts of law. Being a PI is now PROFESSION just like too many to list in our free market system. As with any profession comes an expected level of proficiency. Any behavior below that established level would be considered unprofessional. I hope this sheds some light on this for you and anyone else interested in this field of work.

Sincerely,

[Ken Rohrer]

Originally posted by Bryan McManis


Greetings Ken,

There is nothing to concur on in this example per say. The only fact from the information given is that of being shot at. The person who fired his weapon in the air was ILLEGALLY WRONG PERIOD...

There's nothing like someone with experience shedding some light on the subject. You explain it well. I am also curious as to whom the PI was surveilling- a neighbor, the man's daughter, who? One of the books I recently read told of an experienced PI who stripped out the inside of a full-sized van and put in surveillance equipment- including a port-o-potty. There was a camera mounted to look out the front of the vehicle while the back behind the drivers seat was concealed by a curtain. No one would see anyone in the van. I guess that truly makes one invisible.

[Bryan McManis -]

Originally posted by Ken Rohrer

There's nothing like someone with experience shedding some light on the subject. You explain it well. I am also curious as to whom the PI was surveilling- a neighbor, the man's daughter, who? One of the books I recently read told of an experienced PI who stripped out the inside of a full-sized van and put in surveillance equipment- including a port-o-potty. There was a camera mounted to look out the front of the vehicle while the back behind the drivers seat was concealed by a curtain. No one would see anyone in the van. I guess that truly makes one invisible.

Greetings Ken,

Thank you for the kind words. The person was doing surveillance on a female and the shooter was the father. You would be very wise to learn all you can about surveillance before attempting to do it in any serious fashion. There is nothing glamour’s about surveillance it is hard work. There is preplanning and many other things before you ever start. The numbers of methods are too numerous to list here. The good news is that many methods are well proven to work. What was done to that van was just the tip of the ice burg so to speak.

I am of the opinion that you earn every penny you get if you are a true professional at surveillance work. It is one of the harder things to do in this business and be a proven professional at it.

In closing, there are whole books on just this subject. I wish you all the best as you pursue your goals here in the forums.

Take care,

[Neal Naughton -]

Early one morning, while driving to work two jerks in a red car passed me and slowed down. So I pass them. Same thing happened again. This is about 4:50AM. They play this game down Mayfield Road hill thru the green light at the bottom and up the other side. The game stopped when we reached the red light on SOM Center Road. I got out of my car and was about half way to theirs when they got out. The passenger had a revolver in his hand pointed at me.

Oh (censored), I thought. The was nowhere to run, because the parking lots on both sides of the street were empty at that hour.
The thing that save me was that the driver was sober enough to tell the passinger to put that thing away and get back inside, which he did. The driver then threw a pop bottle at me and jumped back in his car and took off.

I should have got the license plate number, but didn't. I never reported this to the police, because without that number they couldn't do anything. _NFN

[Tina M Phillips]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neal Naughton


Neal,

I hope I understand correctly that you got out of your car after a couple of attempts to 'pass/stare you down' type of game occurred?

I am happy for your safety because it is not good to get out of your car no matter how tempting or angry we are. I have seen some bad situations happen.

I hope I read your post correctly and I am not trying to judge. Just glad you got out of that one.

Tina Phillips

[James L Parmenter -]

I agree with Brian McManis....using the correct gender to act on surveilance jobs, in this case of Workmans Comp, it would be more fesible to have a woman in the PI's poisition thus raising less suspicions of the individual and the family. Appearantly the PI didnt practice good techniques, got too close, and alerted the father. If one gives off the impression as being a stalker he's likely to run into more than just being shot at, which in this case was only a warning. We need to be alert and very aware of our surroundings, someone may be watching us.....be careful out there you guy's its a crazy world we live..............

[Jerry Woytas]

Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:

____________________________________________________
I could not agree more here. New to all this, I was wondering about either a man or woman being mistaken for a stalker. Got my answer.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and replies. Very interesting!

JeryLyn

[Michael J Johnson -]

Robert, could you provide the link to this article, please?

[Christopher Hennessey]

Interesting Stories. Very Informative. I always thought that surviellance would be tough to do. Now, reading these, I know that is the case. And I agree with everyone that this guy obviously did something wrong several times to be perceived as a stalker.
A good lesson to be learned is to always be aware of your surroundings and was mentioned, it is definitely a good idea to know as much as you can about the subject you are survielling (is that a word? )

Lots of great info in these forums!

[Michael J Johnson -]

Early one morning, while driving to work two jerks in a red car passed me and slowed down. So I pass them. Same thing happened again. This is about 4:50AM. They play this game down Mayfield Road hill thru the green light at the bottom and up the other side. The game stopped when we reached the red light on SOM Center Road. I got out of my car and was about half way to theirs when they got out. The passenger had a revolver in his hand pointed at me.

Oh (censored), I thought. The was nowhere to run, because the parking lots on both sides of the street were empty at that hour.
The thing that save me was that the driver was sober enough to tell the passinger to put that thing away and get back inside, which he did. The driver then threw a pop bottle at me and jumped back in his car and took off.

I should have got the license plate number, but didn't. I never reported this to the police, because without that number they couldn't do anything. _NFN

Let me preface this with the fact that I've taught self-defense in some form for many years. The biggest portion of what I teach (95%) is avoidance and de-escalation. I also hang with police, military, ex-military, ex-streetfighters, and other SD instructors both in person and on an exclusive internet forum. Everyone of them would say the same thing:

Do not get in a (censored) match with fools like those in that car. The potential for meeting your Maker by playing that game is so high, it'll take a miracle for you to survive.

You've had your miracle, Neal. Don't expect to ever have another one like that.

My suggestion for such incidents - leave the area. Find another street to go down. Or make a U turn and go the other way. Or go to an area populated by heavy traffic. Go to a police station. Anything but play chicken with some fools in a car. And please don't ever get out of the car unless you're running into a police station!! Which brings me to my final bit of advice which I got from an Aikido player many years ago:

Run toward safety, not away from danger.

We want you around for a long time, Neal.

BTW, if anyone wants to find out more about self-defense from someone who's been there, check out my friends' website:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com...setraining.htm

[Christopher Hennessey]

Michael,

I totally agree and you said what I was thinking when I read that post! I too have taught self defense for a LONG time and teach the same thing. Neal was VERY lucky to have gotten away unharmed. My advice would be keep your mouth shut, ignore it, and like you said, get out of there. In the words of Mr. Miagi: the best way to block a 'punch' is not be there.

[Carl House]

I think it is always best to prepared for anything. Maybe better planning by the investigator would have been helpful in preventing this from happening. I also agree that a woman would have been better for the job.

Carl House

[Melanie Adams]

I agree with you Michael. Neal definitley recieved his miracle on that one! The first thing I was taught on surveillance regarding confrontation of any kind......don't let it happen.

[Tomas Clark]

Have you ever taken a close look at Stalker laws from state to state?

[Patrice-Maria Love]

It is always important to follow policies and procedures for law enforcement to reinforce safety and security. We cannot afford to blow our cover because it
may cost our lives.

[Melvin Smith]

Interesting article. I have had some bad experiences as a process server also involving guns. It's good to get these timely reminders to help keep us on our toes. One never can be too careful these days. Preparation is important, if we know these types of things can happen we can be better equiped to deal with them.

[Jacqueline Simak]

Great stories! Great advice!

Women are told (constantly) to be aware of their surroundings for their own safety. That habit should be very helpful for female PIs. And males need to learn to think like females when following one, although the last place I would go if I thought I was being followed is home

A few years ago friend of mine was teaching a guitar class at a local college. After class he and a female student were going out for coffee. He followed her car out of the parking lot...and to make a long story short, after a while she was making turns without signaling and finally heading back onto a main road. At a red light he pulled up next to her, looked over, and she wasn't the woman from his class. John didn't just let it go though. He got out of the car and walked over...to tell of his mistake. Needless to say, she tore through that red light and didn't look back.

He was harmless but you never know. Just like you never know who might try to hurt you because they don't have any stamp across their foreheads. It's futile to walk around terrified, so we just have to be aware and careful.

Jackie

[Randy Barnes]

I agree with some of the other responces and have to totally agree you must get all the information you can on the target and always be aware of whats going on around. You never know who's around and what theire intentions might be. This should be a good lesson for the trainee as well as the investigtor who has been around for awhile. Never drop your gaurd and never treat it as just another routine assignment. Good luck to all, be safe out there.