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Thread: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

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    Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    This is my personal opinion.

    The Libyan people have proved to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country. These people don't want a civilized democracy. They want to savagely BUTCHER anyone who doe not meet their idea of a hasty trial in a court of law.


    The guy was taken into custody and deprived democratic justice, by butchering him and placing his body on a mattress in a freezer for all of the Libyan people to walk in, pose for pictures, attempt to feel good about their slaughter of their former president.

    Can you imagine if the United States were to condone it's citizens of doing anything similar to either politicians or criminals without a democratic trial?

    And we are now GIVING AID to the Libyan people this week???

    I think NOT.

    Scratch that whole country OFF the list of approved tourist sites, and mind our own business and give aid to our own children, of which might not be grateful, but at least won't go around gawking for photo shoots at dead bodies.

    Again, my personal opinion only.

    Michael

    Source story:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...body-treatment

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Deplorable. I had plans to visit the Middle East next year, but I will be cancelling my trip. I don't need to spend my vacations where my money will go toward savages. I can get that entertainment in a movie for a lot less monry.

    Maybe I will choose to vacation in another Asian country. Any suggestions?

    Donna

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    I'm probably not the best source of this, but have you ever considered going to Japan? I'd love to try Sushi from the source, as well as experience the culture of Japan. It is so fascinating to me. I wound up rereading Shogun about a hundred something times, it was so fascinating, and the history is incredible. I've never had the pleasure, but if they ever make it possible and lift the security a bit, when terror is reduced, I may consider checking out the place in person.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Muslims and the middle east have been at war for thousands of years. With sharia on the rise, we need to drill everyplace possible, or whats left of our economy will be taken out by opec.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Quite true, Tim. Which is why I would only be able to visit Israel when there is peace, and not any other middle eastern country (Since I have Jewish ancestry). OPEC...That's a can of worms in itself.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    This doesn't surprise me in the least.

    I knew this was coming. Same with the supposed "Egypt" coupe, I said back then, same Egypt, same problems. With Libya falling apart its going to get even worse. Our only allies out there are the Israelis, and perhaps Saudis, but they have to watch their backs anyway because even they know their people well.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    I suppose I should amend that one and clarify,

    Honestly the UAE isn't bad for the most part, I actually liked my time in Dubai and Bahrain. Kuwait doesn't even allow anti-american statements and for the most part its people are not out to kill americans. Obviously they wouldn't have a country if not for us. And believe it or not there is hope for Iraq but I would wait another 10-20 years to see how it shakes out. The Saudi Royal family is friendly, but again, all of those know their people very well and are constantly on guard, because they know what they can be like. Thus cannot be dependable allies.

    Only Israel offers unconditional support in the region and will not turn on us.

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    John Sanderson is offline Lifetime Member

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Wow! Though I completely agree what happened is savage and un-necessary to say the least, there is a whole lot more to look at than just the actions of the people responsible. In no way do I condone what was done, but if a nation were judged and condemned based on the actions of a group, however small or large, we would all be damned to hell.

    I personally cannot comment as to whether or not the people are wrong for doing this, as I was not there to fall victim to whatever crimes were committed by the former president. I do recall hearing of several charges against him for several things, but nothing comes boldly to mind. However, I do recall the word atrocities being used, which to me means mass death/murder.

    There is only one who may decide who should live or die, when they should be born, or put to death.

    However, personally speaking, if this man were responsible for the death of a number of my family members, rape or other harm to my daughters or wife, or any other 'serious' crime or injustice and nothing was done, I can't say I wouldn't desire the same.

    As for judging the people responsible for what happened to this man, I'll stay silent.

    This is my opinion anyway.

    -------------------------------------------

    In regard to the references to Muslims being at war in the middle east, it's not just them. Any religion who claims a god has been at war, or played a part in one in the middles east, since the realization of the existence of God was made. Whether involved as an aggressor, allie, or victim/defender.

    As an American I would not venture to the Middle East, mainly due to extremists. But I wouldn't go so far as to peg a single religion's extremists. Each group, faction, or sect misconstrues or misunderstands their doctrine to a manner inconsistent with what their religious leaders interpret them to be.

    In any religion, if we accept a certain religious leader as being appointed by God, or at his hand, or as being in direct contact with God in a manner we are not, shouldn't we then accept what that leader says as if it were coming from God's mouth?

    Well that's enough of my rant about religion.

    ------------------------------------------

    In regard to the assisting of other nations as a whole...

    I don't believe we should assist any nation who consistently votes against everything we stand for, or does not make efforts to change for the better. More-so, I don't think we're in any condition to be giving money away with our national debt the way it is.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Well John, it's really not about Islam,

    It's about the people out there and what many of them really are like. With or without Islam this really is the way things are in a lot of areas. Sugar coating any of it, or trying to take the standpoint of idealism will not help. As an example, Hussein ran a secular regime, Bin Laudin and Iran are non-secular.

    We may have to accept in the end that it will not change, and that only solution to keep us from being constantly attacked, is to wipe out entire areas over there.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Daniels View Post
    Well John, it's really not about Islam,

    It's about the people out there and what many of them really are like. With or without Islam this really is the way things are in a lot of areas. Sugar coating any of it, or trying to take the standpoint of idealism will not help. As an example, Hussein ran a secular regime, Bin Laudin and Iran are non-secular.

    We may have to accept in the end that it will not change, and that only solution to keep us from being constantly attacked, is to wipe out entire areas over there.
    I'd rather think of myself as being more of a realist rather than idealistic. Take for example our own history.

    We, at one point as a nation accepted slavery. Now it's illegal, unethical, and considered all around just wrong. In the days when it was accepted as a normal way of life, white people could do just about whatever they wanted to their slaves and get away with it, including killing them (use your imagination).

    There were few white people who desired to free slaves, and the few whites likely responsible for the groundbreaking of the movement to free slaves, as the slaves themselves had no real rights to speak of, or the ability to speak up against slavery without severe repercussions (re: the death of Dr. Martin Luther King).

    Should we have wiped out the south?

    ---------------------------------------------

    Take for another example, a poverty stricken area of the United States in this time, where the common living earned is by selling drugs, associated violence, and criminal activity.

    Most if not all street drugs cause addictions of which are the hardest known to man to break free of (re: the size of the Narcotics Anonymous, Chemical Dependents Anonymous and other related 12 step fellowships founded to help addicts recover).

    Drug related violence often times includes the most gruesome murders, when compared to 'normal' gang violence or murders.

    Criminal activities utilized to support one's family or to support a drug addiction includes prostitution, stealing from a poverty stricken family who earn just enough money to eat but not pay bills, and other disgusting acts I'll not mention.

    ------------------

    Does the above not qualify as savage? If we would simply nuke Libya, why would we not feel the same about our own nation? All I am saying is a majority can be wrong to even the greatest degree, but it does not make the whole nation or region guilty, nor should it condemn them all to death.

    Libya has been around much longer than the US, even if known by another name at another point in time. Not much can be changed over night, in a decade, or century.

    Anyway, my point above is I, nor anyone else knows the cause the subjects responsible for this claimed for their actions. It may very well be the former president ordered the death of their family members, merely because of their skin color, choice of religion, or a number of other retarded reasons. What would be your response if someone slaughtered your entire family for no real reason? The human mind and mentality is a fragile thing. How much can one really handle before they lose their mind?

    I am all for ceasing financial assistance by majority, to the country. However, I would not be opposed to air drops of food/supplies in poverty stricken areas in stead of providing financial aid, as we have done before.

    If you're familiar with biblical events, the Jews were enslaved for some time in Egypt. It only took one man with a little 'back-up' to alter the entire nation. Should we leave all people in Libya good and bad to fend for themselves? Should we leave the innocent, however few they may or may not be, to the evil?

    I am certain there are plenty of people in Libya who want a change. I am sure there are people there who would love a democracy so their voice can be heard. However, who can make a change if they don't know how?

    Going back to my example involving slavery; After generations of slaves, there weren't many slaves who knew how to read or write. Even today there are descendants of slaves who deal drugs, live in poverty and are not making any progress from generation to generation. Why is it white people are still looked at as privileged? Could it be because the descendants of slaves only had slaves to learn from? And if they only had slaves to learn from, what did they teach their children? What did their children learn?

    Descendants of slaves are progressing, some faster or slower than others and we're beginning to see the results. As each generation grows and teaches the next, the more is taught to the next generation.

    Would we have seen a dark skinned president in the days of slavery? Look what time has allowed us to do.

    Now I will be the first to say I would have elected into the Office of the Presidency someone more experienced, but look at the other side of things - we elected a man of minority to the office. Look how far we have come, and tell me no other country or region can do the same.

    To make a long story short, if we were to nuke everyone off the globe, who attack the US, we would need to first move off the planet. But if we're to start with Libyans, do we include the ones living in the USA? Should we start with the ones within our borders first, since they're closer?

    As you can see, this is a very complicated situation and subject. I have gotten a little chuckle out of how in depth and broad this subject has gone. Considering neither one of us can make the decision to do anything discussed here, I hope this is accepted as a conversation about opinions, rather than an argument.

    Respectfully,

    John Sanderson

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Well John, you are definitely an idealist....

    Comparing slavery to suicide bombing of our civilians, is not even a close comparison. But when they send suicide bombers and assassins over here, there's a much bigger issue. There may come a day when the Extremists are the direct cause of the extinction of Islam and the middle east.

    Here is a little secret they don't tell you, most muslims are not terrorists, but a great many of them tacitly and secretly support it from the sidelines. The end result is the same and those elements flourish.

    For your sake though, and your personal beliefs and the way you believe...

    If I were you, I would be praying to god that George Bush was right about Iraq, and that it succeeds. If it does, then there really is hope for your viewpoint, as it will mean there is a solution that will work. Your viewpoint is currently being tested.

    If not, then there will come a day when you will have to face the scenario I talked about. It really will come down to an us or them decision.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Daniels View Post
    Well John, you are definitely an idealist....
    I suppose so, but I'll continue to hang onto realism. But I see where you're coming from and won't argue.

    Comparing slavery to suicide bombing of our civilians, is not even a close comparison. But when they send suicide bombers and assassins over here, there's a much bigger issue. There may come a day when the Extremists are the direct cause of the extinction of Islam and the middle east.
    In all honesty, I said nothing of suicide bombing. But since it's come up, who decides what is worse between the two?

    Slavery included rape, assault, battery, extreme labor, and little or no food for periods of time. This went on for years and generations. Would you prefer to be subject to a lifetime of the above, or a bomb going off killing you instantly?

    I think we can both agree this conversation (if dragged on) is going to end up taking a turn into silliness. But the points are what they are (both yours and mine).

    Here is a little secret they don't tell you, most muslims are not terrorists, but a great many of them tacitly and secretly support it from the sidelines. The end result is the same and those elements flourish.
    I agree a great many Muslims may in fact support extremism. To what degree though? To go further into this would be very complicated and have to be detailed. Extremism doesn't always include killing, bombing or other violence. Some Christians still believe in having several wives. This is a perfect example of non-violent extremism.

    For your sake though, and your personal beliefs and the way you believe...

    If I were you, I would be praying to god that George Bush was right about Iraq, and that it succeeds. If it does, then there really is hope for your viewpoint, as it will mean there is a solution that will work. Your viewpoint is currently being tested.
    Don't put me in the spotlight (lol). I think it's time to start pulling troops out and saving some money on the operations over there. I think if need be, it's not a bad idea to have some (few) troops there to assist in training new soldiers and police in the country, but at the same time I would be weary of leaving too small a number of our troops there.

    I personally believe, once some significant time has passed with the new government in place, we'll see much of the violence die down.

    Only time will tell.

    If not, then there will come a day when you will have to face the scenario I talked about. It really will come down to an us or them decision.
    If it comes to that I am sure you and I will agree on the choice we should make.

    I thank you for your candor and conversation. I've thoroughly enjoyed learning your views and appreciate your respect throughout our back and forth. I'm satisfied I'm made my points and expressed my opinion. If you feel the same, I am going to withdraw from this thread. I'm not accustom to entering into long term conversations/debates in public areas of the forums.

    I look forward to our crossing paths again in the future, on the forums.

    Be safe my friend.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    I do, as well, respect your opinion John and it has been an abnormally civil conversation for something of this nature I agree. I prefer it that way as well.

    I also have been very understanding of your shoes, you said earlier you had not been to the Middle East or areas in these times. I know it is very very difficult to understand the stark difference there vs the USA, it is unlike anything in your current experience that you would think of here. It simply is another world and a very extreme one, in a way you have probably never seen before.

    Thank you as well for the conversation.

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    John Sanderson is offline Lifetime Member

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Judging by the way you 'speak' (type), I get the impression you've been overseas. Am I correct? If so, please do share a little of your experiences if you're so willing. As I would suspect of the majority of people who've been in that reigon, I would suspect you were in the military, if you were there. If this is also the case, I also would understand a respectful declination of the invitation to share. I wouldn't want to stir up flash backs.

    You'll have to excuse the hyper link to the definition of the word above. I had to check and make sure it was a word before submitting this post. lol

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Well wont go too far into it, but, as an example,

    My welcome to the Middle East on the way in, was news of 5 Pakestanis who had were caught trying to smuggle heroine on a plane in. The news wasn't that they were caught... that was the day before... news of the day was that they had just been beheaded.

    There was also a ton of things you had to remember. Like, don't take women's shoes from a stranger, always shake with your right hand... not your left, don't turn your palm up when you shake, and don't even joke about selling your wife. etc... and those are the lighter ones.

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Daniels View Post
    Well wont go too far into it, but, as an example,

    My welcome to the Middle East on the way in, was news of 5 Pakestanis who had were caught trying to smuggle heroine on a plane in. The news wasn't that they were caught... that was the day before... news of the day was that they had just been beheaded.

    There was also a ton of things you had to remember. Like, don't take women's shoes from a stranger, always shake with your right hand... not your left, don't turn your palm up when you shake, and don't even joke about selling your wife. etc... and those are the lighter ones.
    I'll respect your not wanting to go too far into it.

    Thank-you for your service!

    I look forward or our next meeting.
    John Sanderson

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    Re: Libyan People proving to be SAVAGES and are not worth our time and resources to help improve their country

    Good luck to you too John, and I wish you well.

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