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Thread: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

  1. #1
    Michael Newman's Avatar
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    18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?


    "I don't care about my word, I quit!"

    ABC Nightline reported this week that 18,000 soldiers have deserted their military commitment.

    Is this about the war?

    Or is this about 18,000 sets of personal morals?

    Remember, this is an all-volunteer military unlike the Vietnam draft.

    Are we producing a generation of quitters?

    Is this the first time in 200+ years we have had what some beleive an "unjust war"?

    Do the complainers of losing 3000+ lives in the last five years know their history of previous shorter wars that cost 15 million lives?

    I don't wish for this topic to be about politics (we have another forum for that). What this topic is about is 18,000 soldiers who chose to quit after they signed their commitment.

    ABC Nightline revealed most of the quitters did so because of personal or famility financial problems at home and not because of the war.

    Other reasons cited were "I didn't like the military discipline. I wanted to travel the world and not go to Iraq".

    Will this generation be the whiners and "instant fastfood pleasure nuts"? And who are their parents and their grandparents?

    Is there no longer honor?

    Here's more:

    Desertion:

    • In time of war -- Death
    • With intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service -- Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
    • Terminated by apprehension -- Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
    • Terminated otherwise -- Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.

  2. #2

    Personal Opinion Only:

    I think the number of deserters in Vietnam was around 30,000. I'd be curious to see how many in Korea and WW2.

    We will always have deserters. But it looks like the percentage of deserters has risen. We have 160,000 troops active and 18,000 have walked? I don't think other wars have had that high of percentage.

    • Another factor is the work place. We have fewer employees staying with their jobs compared to generations ago.
    • We have a greater number of bankruptcies than ever before, with people skipping out on their financial obligations.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I too am beginning to believe people in this country no longer believe in honor. It almost seems like we've had it too easy for too long, and have become spoiled.

    I hope I am wrong, or the situation turns around

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I can almost understand desertion in the face of an unjustified war if the deserters were forced to serve (e.g., drafted). But we have an all-volunteer military now. How dumb are these people that they do not know that people get killed during a war.

    Maybe the military should do a better job of screening the recruits.

    In the early 1980s, the US Marine Corps Deputy Chief of Staff for Logistics (DSCLOG)--MG Hatch--said that the Marines would not accept recruits who did not have a high-school diploma from a real high school--no GEDs. The rationale was that the guys who could put up with high school would have the ability to stick with the Marine Corps. The guys with GEDs were quitters and were unsuitable for the Marines. At the time, the pool of recruits was large enough that the Marines had all the warm bodies they needed.

    We might consider fewer bodies, but ones of higher standards.
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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    Actually, the "Playstation Generation" is said to "kill well" by most shrinks. This is the first generation of single-parent latch-key kids to go to war. Besides, divide 18,000 by the total number of all military branches. It's a small percentage. But, I bet USMC has the lowest desertion rate.

    Bryant

  6. #6

    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I can tell you from personal experience that it is the generation of people, as I am part of that generation. When directly comparing retired soldiers and current soldiers I notice a significant difference.

    Modern day Americans are not "committed to the cause,” before I get started, I just want to say that I really don't mean this as a “for or against” statement on the current state of military operations. I just want to reiterate once more that I don't want this to degrade into an argument over the justifiability of the Iraq/Afghanistan engagements.

    Americans no longer want to go the distance, they are not committed to following through with much of anything anymore and there are no real consequences for giving up. We have a generation of quitters and feel good people. We are a culture that rewards complaining about problems rather than finding a solution to overcome them. We reward people who do not want to succeed but just want to get by, and we reward mediocrity. We tell our young people ( and I am a young person so I experienced this firsthand for many years, I just never bought into it ) that there aren't winners and losers and that everyone is equal and deserves the same just for "trying." As a society, we have gotten away from rewarding successful, creative, hardworking people and instead reward everyone for participation regardless of the level of that participation. We do not emotionally harden our people anymore either, everything is so touchy feely with the winners and losers bit. We want everyone to feel good and warm and fuzzy so we don't want anyone’s feelings or self-esteem to hurt. Well, I tell you what, a whole lot fewer soldiers would come back with post traumatic stress disorder if they were a bit more emotionally hardened before they went to a war zone. I can't think of a single person from Special Forces that I know who has come back with PTSD, but everyone I know likes what they do and generally are lot more prepared for what they have to deal with. Our society doesn't want our men to act rough anymore, they want everyone to be touchy feely nice. This creates a bit of a problem when it comes to the defense of our nation. Unfortunately, a lot of Americans think that you can talk problems out and that is a viable solution, but a lot of times violence is the only thing that violent people understand. I don't like it anymore than the next person, but sometimes it's necessary and the more we weaken the fabric of our society, the less we will be able to respond to threats of violence.

    On to how that affects the military...well, there are lots and lots of aspects so I'll try to limit things to a few points. First, we are no longer a society that values "warriors." Not only do we discourage honor and integrity in our youth, but the media and society portray the military as a dead end for dead end people. It is not longer a place that holds a position of honor and respect among society as a whole. Therefore bright people with bright future don't want to go to the military because of that stigma. That may sound a bit extreme, and I know that the majority of the people here hold a great respect for the military and everything that is done, but I can tell you from wearing a uniform that most people don't care, or think that you are an uneducated idiot who had no other options and that's how you ended up in the military, especially as an enlisted person. However, statistically of all the "corporate entities" in the United States, the military has the highest percentage of bachelor's degrees in the country. I myself am well on my way to a Masters. Are there people in the military who are there because they had no other options? Yes, there most definitely are a lot of people like that. And unfortunately it's becoming more and more as we as a society portray it as something bad, fewer and fewer people choose to be there like myself, and those that do choose to be there usually end up in special assignments and therefore are not the "face" of the military that everyone sees in the media. Like I said, I had plenty of options, there are lots of things that I can do, but I chose to go to the military because that is the job I wanted to do, that is the career path I wanted.

    Second, my previous point that we are no longer "committed to the cause." It doesn't really matter what the cause is, we just plain don't want to put the effort in as a society anymore. We have moved from working towards a goal to expecting instant gratification for everything. When instant gratification is not achieved, we give up and choose to do something else that looks like it will be easier or provide easier gratification. I see this in the younger soldiers on a regular basis. Shortly before I got out of the Army I worked at the Special Forces Qualification Course, the place where you go to become a Green Beret, and I was in charge of the incoming SF Recruits. When I say recruits, these are people who have already been soldiers in other parts of the Army or who have signed up to go straight to Special Forces training from Infantry School, not bare bones basic training recruits. Talking with the Cadre who train the recruits in each phase and even just my own empirical observations from the time I was first there to when I worked there at the end, things had gotten significantly easier every training cycle and there still are a higher percentage of voluntary withdrawals ( people who choose to quit ) than there have been for years and years. People just don’t really want to go the distance anymore, and I watched things get less intense and still people gave up. It got to the point where some of my friends and I were joking that SF no longer meant Special Forces, it meant Slightly-better-than-average Forces. ; ) Now, this was among an organization that you have to volunteer for in a volunteer Army. It has always been held to a much higher standard and there was still a lot more people who just didn't want to put the effort in to success.

    Lastly, among the Regular Army, my friends who are there and my own observations showed even more distress. The biggest problem that has been discussed by many others is that the Army tends to promote to the point of incompetency. What I mean by that is if you do a good job, you get promoted, if you do a good job, you get promoted, if you do a crappy job, they leave you in that position. This leads to a lot of people in their jobs who just plain aren't good at it, and rather than just moving them back where they did a good job, they are left to continue to do a bad job where they are. Additionally, a lot of people get really jaded with the whole system, because once again it follows the societal trend of not rewarding the people who should be rewarded, leading to them leaving the service because they don't want to put up with the BS anymore. After you are stuck with meaningless tasks and meaningless requirements over and over and over again for no real discernable reason, you get extremely frustrated with the entire system and just want to scream. Because of the size and complexity of the military it is pretty much impossible to fix the problems that are making a lot of the really great people leave the service. Also, if you tell anyone you're not staying before you're on your way out, you get horribly penalized and punished for not staying by the people in charge, which then just leaves an even more bitter taste in your mouth. Telling people why you're not staying doesn't change anything and it is just plain unfortunate. This pretty much leaves a lot of people there because they can skate by and not care, and the people who do really care and do really want things to get better leave because they can't stand a lot of the people in charge.

    Now for the disclaimer: There are PLENTY of really, really great people in the service. I have met almost all of my best friends while I was in the military, and we will be friends forever. Additionally it opens a lot of doors with former service members on the outside, and it is a brotherhood ( and sisterhood ) that supports it’s own for a life time. I have a great respect for the majority of people who serve, obviously, and I don't mean to disparage any of the hard working and committed people in the Armed Forces, but I think they know exactly what I'm talking about, so I'm not too worried about them hating me.

    I'm sure there are plenty of things I have left out, and there are plenty of other topics to cover, but I figured I should probably keep it somewhat short as I can ramble for hours about these topics. So, maybe I'll come back later and add some more, but for now, there you have it.

    As far as Michael said, I wish they would consider fewer bodies with higher standards; the problem is getting rid of the people who really suck. Additionally, I have heard from many recruiters that at this point a lot of it is just putting warm bodies on the ground.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I was never in the military, although I wanted to be, my back kept me out.

    But your third paragraph
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Doud View Post
    Americans no longer want to go the distance, they are not committed to following through with much of anything anymore and there are no real consequences for giving up. We have a generation of quitters and feel good people. We are a culture that rewards complaining about problems rather than finding a solution to overcome them.
    I couldn't agree with more. You hit the nail right on the head.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    Uhh...I was going to say what Adam said. Well stated.

    I remember reading a story right after we invaded Afghanistan where a soldier from NJ refused to be deployed because he only joined the military to get a college education and he shouldn't have to go to war because that's not what he signed up for. And he was willing to sit in a brig rather than fulfill his commitment.18,000 deserters? I was initially surprised by that number. Now that I think about it...is that all?

    We live in an incredibly soft society were everything is supposed to be fair and even. I have an 11 year old step-daughter who had to stay home for school for such things as headaches (which go away immediately after the school bus drives past the house), a steaming temperature of 99.1 ("oh my God! I have a fever!), and being sore from playing Wii. That's right...the video game. I can't blame her...it's my wife that allows this. Two years ago, she decided to learn how to play the violin. She was required to practice 15 minutes a day. As in 1/4 hour per day. She was actually pretty good. After about 3 months she quit because she had, and I quote, "too much on my plate." This was from a 3rd grader. And I swear, I looked all over her room for that plate and couldn't find it. So I went down to the kitchen and brought up the largest platter I could find, but neither my step-daughter or my wife found humor in it. Or the lesson in it.

    Children aren't even taught basic manners anymore, such as referring to adults as Mr./Mrs. Whatever. I'm in my 40's, and I still refer to people as Sir or Ma'am. When asked why by my step-daughter, I told her it was simply to be respectful. Her response? "Why? What did they do to earn it?" Interesting how people expect others to earn their respect and yet it doesn't occur to them that they also have to earn respect. It's an attitude of "you have to give it to me before I'll give it to you." I really fear for our future.

    I guess the good news is, even if we accept mediocracy in our military, at least it's better than what the bad guys have. And THOSE guys are committed. (I can't imagine a time in our history that we could have raised a generation of suicide bombers.) And let's face it...if wars were run by the generals instead of the politicians via the polls, then we wouldn't have this problem, would we?

    So, thank you to all those that have served and are serving honorably. And thank God that there are many more of them than there are deserters. I truly believe that most of the men and women that choose to join the military do so for the best of reasons, which is to defend our country. Not everyone can be the best. The point of every pyramid has a huge base underneath it.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    Thank you Jon, I would have to say that I rather agree with you as well. It boggles my mind, the sheer lack of respect and the "world owes me whatever I want but I shouldn't have to actually to do anything to get it" mentality that is prevalent among my generation and younger.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I agree, society has gotten soft, meaning we have lightened up on forms of discipline in general. At home, at school, in the court system etc...There has been no accountability by the masses. Laws needs to be reenforced, hince there is a strong need for this profession. IPIU must stand strong.

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    Angry Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what? SHEEP!

    We aren't just soft, we're sheep.
    We have far left and right liberals telling us whats good for us, telling us whats not and forcing laws to back their views.
    On the other hand we have far left and right conservatives who stand beside the constitution and thump their chest in its defense, but in reality they too have gutted it in the name of securing it(?) when any one figures that one out please let me know.

    I shed blood, both mine and... not mine, in the name of my country, my God, and to defend the US Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic. I bet you my lunch if I did just that, I'd be a terrorist in the eyes of the government and media hype, and have two in the chest by the very people I stood beside when I served.

    Sheep, we follow blindly and stand under the tallest tree in the field during thunder storms!
    Sheep, no longer allowed to hold an individual thought or ideal unless it was planted by the very government we placed there to do our thinking for us. Sheep.


    When Martin Luther King Marched people noticed. When the Chicago riots broke out, people noticed, and acted.

    When Mississippi burned people acted. Now, we sit around waiting for someone to come along and act for us, get mad and do nothing when that doesn't in fact happen.

    The penalty during WWI and II for shell shock troupe's refusing to return to the front? 7 men 5 bullets, randomly loaded weapon, a blindfold and a cigarette.

    George Washington understood, George MacArthur did too. sheep, I figure if I say it enough, people will get mad enough to do something about it...then you're a Black Sheep

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what? SHEEP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen Douglass View Post
    George Washington understood, George MacArthur did too. sheep, I figure if I say it enough, people will get mad enough to do something about it...then you're a Black Sheep

    SJ Douglass
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    I must now correct an error, I meant George S Patton 3rd ID and Not Douglas MacArthur, Japan Occupation Administrator.
    Baah!
    Climb To Glory!
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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    I agree with SJ and what he says, pretty much. That being said, I never would have deserted, but if I had had the opportunity, as I would've been deployed to Iraq if I hadn't been sick before my company deployed, if Saddam had been in my range and my sites, I would have disobeyed any orders and taken care of business. Also, for reference, I am ninth cousin to General Douglas MacArthur.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what? SHEEP!

    I agree with SJ on the comments about some of his "sheepish" comments. However, I do think the desertion issue goes back to the question of being soft.

    When my youngest son joined the Marines, he did it coming straight out of high school, and actually did an advance sign-up while still in high school. It was what he wanted, and had thought about it thoroughly, so I signed the papers that had my son actually turning 18 in boot camp. Before he would make the final decision, I had his recruiter come and have a long sit down with us, explaining the ins and outs of boot camp, what to *really* expect...all the way up to the Marine Crucible, and the breaking down in order to properly build you up into a good, solid Marine. So my son knew exactly what he was in for, and regardless of what he was facing, and did face, looked forward to it.

    The sadness came for me when I went up for his graduation. We spent the "family" day before hanging out, and that's when he told me he was actually disappointed in boot camp. Evidently, his was the first group under a "new" method that was actually "less harsh" than any of the previous groups. The worst of it was, even under this "new, less harsh" environment, there were recruits who whined to their parents about how tough it was, and their parents actually contacted their Representatives and Congressmen and *complained* about how their babies were suffering...and the commanders were forced to tone it down even more.

    Adadm said above:

    We do not emotionally harden our people anymore either, everything is so touchy feely with the winners and losers bit. We want everyone to feel good and warm and fuzzy so we don't want anyone’s feelings or self-esteem to hurt. Well, I tell you what, a whole lot fewer soldiers would come back with post traumatic stress disorder if they were a bit more emotionally hardened before they went to a war zone.
    Sadly, he is very right. Previous to this, I don't think I have ever heard any of my military friends tell me that they were disappointed in the toughness of boot camp. Had my son told me what was going on, I would have been the parent calling my Rep to have him beg the military to kick my son's butt...I would rather have him prepared to go into the stress of a war situation and come home to me alive and in one piece.

    Michael posted the original article for this thread back in Sept. 2007, which ironically was right about the time that my son was going through this "new, less harsh" boot camp. I think that there is no timing for coincidence.

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    Re: 18,000 Military Deserters says more about what?

    Perhaps the Marines have splintered off sections for those can be employed in softer jobs, which giving advanced training to those who want to go the tough route. That way everyone gets a job that is suited to their desires and strengths, as the all-volunteer military seems to have dwarfed the draft days of the 60's.

    Even Air-Borne, as rough and tough a reputation it has had - now has splintered groups to allow more softies to "participate."

    Navy Seals appears to stick to their training. Perhaps that is the last standing.

    (Have not heard much about the Green Berets, who once shared the spotlight)

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