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Thread: Discussion: Having a license or not.

  1. #1
    I know through reading through the forum that similar questions have been posted on whether a license is needed to be a private investigator. I know the answer is no. Here is were I am confused. I understand that I can not approach a person so to say advertise myself. But if a person comes up to me than I can take a job for them. So do you tell a person who needs a specific service that you are qualified in that you are a P.I? I relate this to a site on our forum where you can track income tax money and property unclaimed. I noticed several people living in my area. So if I track this person down and ask for a finders fee isn't this advertising my service? I have read the laws in my state on P.I but still don't see a answer.
    Christopher J Beck

  2. #2
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    Sorry about the lateness in answering your question.

    A private investigator can mop a floor for someone without a license. A finder's fee can be earned without a license and can be done so without retaining a licensed investigator. Just because licensed investigators collect on finders fees doesn't mean you can't collect a finder fee without having a license.

    We have an advanced training book in the catalog titled Asset Locations (or something like that). It's geared toward what you're speaking about.

    So study the exemptions of your state law and what you technically call yourself when performing investigations. Although the statutes do not say there is an exemption for PI's who mop floors, the avenue I would take would be to call myself . . . A Case Examiner (as shown on the IPIU Badge)

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    Christopher & David,

    Of course, the main point of the response should have been that whether you call yourself a "Case Examiner" or "Floor Mopper" if you conduct the duties of a private investigator in a state that regulates those duties without a license to do so or an exemption from licensing you are breaking the law. To skirt around the law by use of semantics probably violates the spirit of the law.

    I understand that people want to enter this exciting and enjoyable field, but untrained, unqualified people should not be encouraged to hang out their shingle just because they can. The effects can be disasterous, not only for the "investigator", but for their client and the entire investigative profession.

    People, please get training. Work with someone in the field who knows what they are doing before you go out and commit a mistake, or worse, a crime. Its not worth it. If being a private invesitgator is truly your dream then work to make it come true. Learn the trade before you jump into it. You wouldn't dive in the deep end if you didn't know how to swim. You wouldn't try to fly a plane without being taught. Don't risk ruining your life and the life of your client without proper training. Being a P.I. is not like opening a bowling alley. People depend on the work you do. It is important work. It's not something you just wake up one morning and decide to do. Its not a game. This job takes commitment, training and experience. Please, don't go off half cocked. Your mistake could cost someone millions of dollars, their freedom, or more.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

  4. #4
    Jim,

    I really appreciated seeing your reply here.

    I have been seeing a lot of responses, but not a lot of real
    answers.

    I would like to expound on your comments, and ask that you
    correct me if I fall way off base.

    In most states that require licensing to be a Private Investigator,
    there is also a way (legally) to gain the necessary experience
    built in to the law.

    As I understand IPIU's assumed obligation to us, the membership,
    is to find these ways and help us work in them. Thus giving us the experience necessary to obtain that license, if that is the path
    we choose. (I hope I haven't misunderstood IPIU on this, as that is the sole reason for my joining them.

    I am always open to any comments or corrections to my thoughts.

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    Carl,

    Whew! I thought I was the only one who was seeing a lot of bandwidth without the benefit of substance. That's not to say that there are not some members and moderators responding with good, solid advice. However, I have seen numerous examples of people asking how to close a box and being told the advantages of Ziploc bags.

    Where there are laws, there will be loopholes in those laws. Where there are loopholes there will be those people willing to exploit them for their own benefit, even if that benefit violates the spirit of the law or causes great risk to the general population.

    That said, there are many legal ways to gain the experience necessary to become a private invesitgator. Prior law enforcement experience, certain military experience, security experience, working as an inhouse investigator, training under the guidance of a licensed private investigator. . . the list goes on and on. The problem I have is with people who wake up one morning and say "I think I'll be a private investigator today." Just because they have motive and opportunity doesn't mean that they should do it.

    I read a reply from someone (I believe a moderator) who told a "wannabe" investigator that if they like to fly by the seat of their pants and think they can do the job that they should hang out their shingle. What kind of lousy advice is that? Let's look at a senario and see where it goes.

    Joe hangs out his shingle and on the first day someone walks in looking for an investigator. Joe goes on to explain that he is an investigator and accepts an assignment to investigate an accident in which the client's wife was killed. Joe goes out and interviews a few witnesses, but not being trained as an accident investigator fails to recognize a possible alternative liability issue. He reports back to his client that it looks like the client's wife caused the accident and that there is no liability on the part of the other driver. He never noticed that the airbags didn't deploy, never explored the alternative liabilty issue (product liability) and the client loses millions of dollar.

    The next day another client walks in with another case. This time his brother is in jail on a murder charge. Joe informs the client that he is a private investigator. . . yada, yada, yada. . . the client's brother gets the chair.

    Can you see the potential for trouble? The reason that states have licensing is to keep unqualified, untrained individuals from ruining someone's life. That's why I implore people to get proper training before entering this profession. There is too much at risk to be going in with your eyes shut tight. Remember, just because you're allowed to do something doesn't mean you should.

    I'm not sure of what IPIU's obligation to you is? Apparently they are in the business of supplying you leads for employment and working with national firms to get you assignments that you can legally perform and handle. I think that's a great way to break into the business. My problem is with the fringe that seems to look for ways around the very laws that are in place to protect the citizens of the state. To do so invites disaster and weakens the very industry that they promote.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

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    Originally posted by Jim Ley
    .... if you conduct the duties of a private investigator in a state that regulates those duties without a license to do so or an exemption from licensing you are breaking the law.
    I disagree with this comment. I have studied the Florida statutes and other states where the regulated duties of a licensed investigator, by and large, fall into the same category of exempted private investigators.

    The duties of a private investigator are never regulated by any state. It is the advertising or preception of a licensed private investigator that is regulated. There is no law anywhere in the United States that probibits anyone from doing private investigations.

    The very nature of the state laws came about as a result of false advertising by private investigators who were not fufilling their services until the public was outraged. Attorneys were never licensed until there was a need for it. CPA's, collection agency's, and all other professional trades besome regulated when their is a need for it. And it has very little to do with regulating the duties of observation and reporting.

    In California the entire licensing department for collection agencys was thrown out by the law makers. In Colorado the entire licensing department for private investigators was dismissed.

    In Colorado there was a governor's commission last year to investigate whether or not the state should re-establish their licensing of private investigators. The report overwhelmingly reported there was no need for such regulation, since in the last 30 years other consumer protection laws by other agencies now protect the public from false advertising claims by private investigators.

    Let us not forget the principle here. Training is essential, as you stated. An untrained private investigator will skirt the consumer protection laws which may require regulation. In those states, such as Florida and California, simply call the licensing bureau (as Legal Affairs did a few years ago) and ask the operator the question "Do I need a license as a private investigator?" If the answer is Yes, then ask to speak to a manager, because that answer is untrue. If the answer is "perhaps" or "it depends", then you are receiving the correct response.

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    Originally posted by Jim Ley
    I read a reply from someone (I believe a moderator) who told a "wannabe" investigator that if they like to fly by the seat of their pants and think they can do the job that they should hang out their shingle.
    Please provide us with the link to that post.

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    Originally posted by Carl Violando
    As I understand IPIU's assumed obligation to us, the membership, is to find these ways and help us work in them. Thus giving us the experience necessary to obtain that license, if that is the path we choose. (I hope I haven't misunderstood IPIU on this, as that is the sole reason for my joining them.
    For the record, IPIU does not promote trainees to obtain a private investigators license nor open their own business as a private investigator. IPIU promotes trainees to work as a private investigator to gain on-the-job experience within the full scope of the law, and not through loop-holes. How that is accomplished is left up to the trainee and the agency they work for.

    On the other hand, if a trainee asks if they need a license to do private investigations, our job is to report the statutes and the exemptions and not to add further commentary. Our first duty is to help trainees obtain the training and the experience within the law. Obtaining a license of their own is not our first concern, as there is ample proof that many licensed private investigators do not know what they are doing in certain fields of private investigation.
    Legal Affairs comments are not intended to be and should absolutely not be taken as legal advice. If you should require legal, tax, or financial advice, you must first enter into a written agreement with only a licensed professional for legal, tax, or financial services, signed by both you and the licensed professional, and paid a retainer in good funds. Legal Affairs is not, nor intends to be, nor solicits to be your licensed professional. Members accessing comments by Legal Affairs are required to be bound by their Terms of Use Agreement regarding Legal Affairs.

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    Originally posted by Jim Ley
    Where there are laws, there will be loopholes in those laws. Where there are loopholes there will be those people willing to exploit them for their own benefit, even if that benefit violates the spirit of the law or causes great risk to the general population.
    The very comment that Ms. Warner made regarding the laws in Colorado is the point. It is not a loophole that IPIU seeks. It is a law that we seek which gives freedom to work as a private investigator without deluting another statute that is already on the books.

    In the state of Florida, there were ample laws on the books already which protected the duties of private investigators under other state agencies. When the State of Florida established the licensing department for private investigators, they recognized other state and federal agencies who already permited private investigators to perform their duties. In that, the lawmakers chose not to subject a new statute which would have a conflict with another department or bill. That is why there are always exemptions to the control one state agency has over another. It is not a loophole, and it is not "on the fence". It is simply a different set of circumstances that does not relate to the jurisdiction or the licensing laws of that one department.

    In the case of Colorado, the lawmakers found that their own attorney state general and county district attorneys had few, if any, complaints against private investigators in the last 30 years of non-regulation. The reasons appear to be:

    1) Colorado has a strong association of private investigators whose agenda is to certify training and ethics.

    2) Other Colorado and federal agencies have been established to protect the client and the consumer from inept private investigators who violate laws within their scope.

    IPIU simply promotes a trainee to obtain academic training, on the job training, and continual training within the full scope of the law. Notwithstanding, this includes working for insurance companies, law firms, department stores, collection agencies, and any other lawful business enterprise that is exempt under most private investigator licensing laws.

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    Originally posted by Jim Ley
    I'm not sure of what IPIU's obligation to you is? Apparently they are in the business of supplying you leads for employment and working with national firms to get you assignments that you can legally perform and handle.
    That is only one aspect of what IPIU offers it's members. It's primarly "business" is that of an international trade association of private investigators, charged by it's Board of Directors to provide ongoing education and certification in the field of private investigations, along with membership benefits that would offset the cost of membership dues.

  11. #11
    David Copeland's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Mary Lynn Warner

    Please provide us with the link to that post.
    Me too. I would like to see what moderator (or member) would have made such an implication.

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    In response to Mary Lynn Warner and David Copeland's request for more information concerning the statement in my posting, the statement was made by Frederick DeMarks on August 25, 2000 in response to a posting by Mr. Copeland. It is as follows:

    "But, here's the GOOD NEWS for most desiring a Private Investigation career! Some states do not require a LICENSE - therefore no real experience is required. If you know you could do it, and fly by the seat of your pants, then your free to try it out. "

    The link to the post is: Private Investigator Forums > GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUMS > Trainee Questions & Answers for:
    Private Investigators! > "Is it really possible to Become A Private Investigator without . . .?

    I'll address my response to other issues in a separate posting.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

  13. #13
    David Copeland's Avatar
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    Thanks, Jim, for the answer. I'm glad to find that Mr. Demarks is neither a moderator or an IPIU member. He registered as a free board member nearly two years ago in August 2000 and was last on the board in March of 2001. His file shows he is an LPI from Ohio. Still, he is certainly entitled to his personal opinion, but his opinion is subjective as he states folks are free to do what they want in an unregulated state. IPIU would have stated it differently, as we suggest training. Still, even in Florida a designated or qualified manager (which is licensed) can manage the affairs of a licensed agency owned by an inexperienced and unlicensed owner. The states appear to have a mechanism in place to make sure the agency is accountable by a qualifed and licensed investigator.

    The entire link is at: Click Here

    In fact, you will find that I authored the topic sometime ago and asked for opinions. By all means, Jim, please add a reply to Mr.. Demarks comments. It will generate an email to him.

    I think you and IPIU are on the same page, especially since I read you spoke to Mr. Donovan. He takes very seriously anyone who lists their agency and telephone number contact information on their signature before it is approved. Not everyone has that privilege.

    David

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    Originally posted by Mary Lynn Warner

    I disagree with this comment. I have studied the Florida statutes and other states where the regulated duties of a licensed investigator, by and large, fall into the same category of exempted private investigators.

    The duties of a private investigator are never regulated by any state. It is the advertising or preception of a licensed private investigator that is regulated. There is no law anywhere in the United States that probibits anyone from doing private investigations.

    The very nature of the state laws came about as a result of false advertising by private investigators who were not fufilling their services until the public was outraged. Attorneys were never licensed until there was a need for it. CPA's, collection agency's, and all other professional trades besome regulated when their is a need for it. And it has very little to do with regulating the duties of observation and reporting.

    In California the entire licensing department for collection agencys was thrown out by the law makers. In Colorado the entire licensing department for private investigators was dismissed.

    In Colorado there was a governor's commission last year to investigate whether or not the state should re-establish their licensing of private investigators. The report overwhelmingly reported there was no need for such regulation, since in the last 30 years other consumer protection laws by other agencies now protect the public from false advertising claims by private investigators.

    Let us not forget the principle here. Training is essential, as you stated. An untrained private investigator will skirt the consumer protection laws which may require regulation. In those states, such as Florida and California, simply call the licensing bureau (as Legal Affairs did a few years ago) and ask the operator the question "Do I need a license as a private investigator?" If the answer is Yes, then ask to speak to a manager, because that answer is untrue. If the answer is "perhaps" or "it depends", then you are receiving the correct response.
    Mary Lynn,

    In Florida, FSS 493.6101 (16) states that " 'Private Investigator' means any individual who, for consideration, advertises as providing OR PERFORMS private investigation. . . " (Emphasis added)

    FSS 493.6101 (17) states " 'Private investigation' means the investigation by a person or persons for the purpose of obtaining information with reference to any of the following matters:

    (a) Crime or wrongs done or threatened against the United States or any state or territory of the United States, when operating under express written authority of the governmental official responsible for authorizing such investigation.

    (b) The identity, habits, conduct, movements, whereabouts, affiliations, associations, transactions, reputation, or character of any society, person, or group of persons.

    (c) The credibility of witnesses or other persons.

    (d) The whereabouts of missing persons, owners of abandoned property or escheated property, or heirs to estates.

    (e) The location or recovery of lost or stolen property.

    (f) The causes and origin of, or responsibility for, fires, libels, slanders, losses, accidents, damage, or injuries to real or personal property.

    (g) The business of securing evidence to be used before investigating committees or boards of award or arbitration or in the trial of civil or criminal cases and the preparation therefor."

    While I will be the first to admit that there are exemptions to this law, such as an in-house investigator working for an attorney, an insurance adjuster working on a claim, a collection agent locating a debtor, a forensic accountant conducting an asset investigation, or one of a number other possibilities, these exemptions are type specific. A claims adjuster should not be out tracking down child support debtors. A forensic accountant shouldn't be out investigating an auto accident. An in-house investigator should be an employee of the attorney, not an independent contractor.

    The law is clear. While the state cannot regulate those people who wish to investigate something for themselves, or out of friendship or honor, it can and does regulate those persons who perform the duties of a private investigator in return for consideration, monetary or otherwise.

    While I agree with you that there are plenty of licensed investigators who are not fulfilling their duties to their clients, I don't believe that the answer is more unqualified people doing it. The answer is training, and lots of it. Before people who "like to fly by the seat of their pants" get into this field, perhaps they should learn how to fly.

    Oh, one other thing. You are correct that Colorado again chose not to regulate the private investigation industry. For some reason they feel that it is more important to regulate cosmotologists and massage therapists than to regulate those people who are in a position to cause great harm to their citizens.

    Private investigators in Colorado were regulated from 1887 until 1977 when the Colorado Supreme Court ruled the law unconstitutional. In that ruling, People v. Ro'Mar (Colo., 559 P2d 710), the court ruled that the licensure law violated the citizen's state and federal due process rights because the statute failed to define a "detective business."

    What you failed to mention in your comments is that the Professional Private Investigator's Association of Colorado (PPIAC), Colorado Sheriff's Association, National Association of Certified Investigators, National Council of Investigative and Security Services and the National Association of Security and Investigator Regulatory Agencies support the regulation of private investigators and favor licensing in the state of Colorado.

    As private investigators, we are all in this together. I believe our goal should be to see that new investigators are given the opportunity to realize their dream, while conducting themselves within the spirit of the laws that regulate us. There is too much at stake.

    Take Care,
    Last edited by Jim Ley--; 03-10-2002 at 09:05 PM.
    Jim Ley

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    Originally posted by David Copeland
    Still, even in Florida a designated or qualified manager (which is licensed) can manage the affairs of a licensed agency owned by an inexperienced and unlicensed owner. The states appear to have a mechanism in place to make sure the agency is accountable by a qualifed and licensed investigator.
    David,

    Florida does offer a class "MA" license that allows a non-investigator to act as manager of a private investigation agency. However, this designation does not allow him to act as private investigator without the benefit of a private investigator's (class "C") license. Instead, it merely allows him to act as the business manager of the agency. All investigative work must still be performed by a licensed private investigator. There are exceptions in place to allow a class "C" licensed private investigator to act as an agency manager without the benefit of a class "MA" license.

    I think that it is important to remember that while a class "C" licensed private investigator can act as an agency manager, an agency manager cannot act as a private investigator without a class "C" license.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

  16. #16
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    Jim, then what would be the proper mix for an unqualified unlicensed owner for his own new agency if he/she already had six qualified licensed investigators willing and able to step in as his/her qualified and licensed manager?

    To obtain a Class A license as an agency, the owner would need:

    1) A Class MA that holds a Class C?
    2) If so, then the MA/C could authorized the owner as a CC?

  17. #17
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    Originally posted by David Copeland
    Jim, then what would be the proper mix for an unqualified unlicensed owner for his own new agency if he/she already had six qualified licensed investigators willing and able to step in as his/her qualified and licensed manager?

    To obtain a Class A license as an agency, the owner would need:

    1) A Class MA that holds a Class C?
    2) If so, then the MA/C could authorized the owner as a CC?
    David,

    A class "A" agency owner could obtain a class "MA" manager's license and employ class "C" licensed investigators. The agency owner / manager could also be sponsored by one of the class "C" licensed investigators as a class "CC" intern and conduct investigations under the guidance of his sponsor.

    Likewise, a class "A" agency owner could have one of his class "C" employees act as agency manager and then sponsor him for his class "CC" intern license. He could then conduct investigations under the guidance of his sponsor.

    Still another scenario would be that a class "MA" manager who does not own the agency could also work as a class "CC" intern under the sponsorship of one of the class "C" investigators.

    Lots of options. I know the Florida license classes are confusing. Below are a list of all the possibilities:

    Class A - Private investigation agency license
    Class AA - Private investigation branch office
    Class AB - Private investigation / security agency branch office
    Class B - Security agency
    Class BB - Security agency branch office
    Class C - Private investigator
    Class CC - Private investigator intern
    Class D - Security officer
    Class DI - Security officer school instructor
    Class DS - Security officer school
    Class E - Recovery agent
    Class EE - Recovery agent intern
    Class G - Statewide firearms license (For security and P.I.'s)
    Class K - Firearms instructor
    Class M - Manager investigative and security agency
    Class MA - Manager private investigation agency
    Class MB - Manager security agency
    Class MR - Manager recovery agency
    Class R - Recovery agency
    Class RI - Recovery school instructor
    Class RR - Recovery agency branch office
    Class RS - Recovery agent school
    Class W - Concealed weapons permit (For general public)

    I hope that this clears it up a little.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

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    Then, in other words, an unlicensed trainee could start his/her own PI Agency without any experience, pay the fees, and employ an experienced licensed professional as his/her agency manager to teach him/her the ropes and to guide the management of the agency?

    This is exactly what the State of California permits as well, and promotes the qualified training necessary for those who wish to become their own boss and investigator, while obtaining the necessary experience to qualify for their own individual license in a few years.

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    Originally posted by admin
    Then, in other words, an unlicensed trainee could start his/her own PI Agency without any experience, pay the fees, and employ an experienced licensed professional as his/her agency manager to teach him/her the ropes and to guide the management of the agency?

    This is exactly what the State of California permits as well, and promotes the qualified training necessary for those who wish to become their own boss and investigator, while obtaining the necessary experience to qualify for their own individual license in a few years.
    In a word, yes. The agency owner would still have to qualify and submit himself to a background investigation and meet the other qualifications. But pending his qualification that should work out.

    Take Care,
    Jim Ley

  20. #20
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    In TN there are several ways you can do some work but it is through an attorney or collection agencys or insurance agency's and you have to work for them. I think education is important but just like everything else they want you to take classes for a year and a half just to get more money. And trust me, most all the classes are just common sense and a waste of time, you cannot even test out. It is frustrating. I would like to find a way to get my state to throw out the need for a PI liscense like Colorado.

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