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Thread: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

  1. #41
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thank you very much Mike in response to my comment. Hopefully you will have the time to elborate on the two. The networking and the system itself. I'm in a situation where I can't comment on some of the above statements as of yet but thee above readings sounds a little profound and I would like to read them so I can comment.

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    Personal Opinion Only:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Harris
    When we think the laws are wrong, we have the obligation to get them changed.
    And "change" is what happened in the State of Colorado over the privacy of corporation officers, owners, stock holders, and directors.

    Some states allow anyone to access the private names and addresses of corporate officers of a PI Agency. But recently, the lawmakers in Colorado changed their regulations to prevent the public from snooping around the private lives of corporate officers. The State of Colorado no longer asks for the names of the officers! It is now 100% private, listing only the designated Registered Agent to receive mail.

    Using Colorado as a headquarter corporation, owners can now file to do business in other states while keeping the ownership is private.

    Another move from no privacy to privacy. Perhaps we could use more.
    Legal Affairs comments are not intended to be and should absolutely not be taken as legal advice. If you should require legal, tax, or financial advice, you must first enter into a written agreement with only a licensed professional for legal, tax, or financial services, signed by both you and the licensed professional, and paid a retainer in good funds. Legal Affairs is not, nor intends to be, nor solicits to be your licensed professional. Members accessing comments by Legal Affairs are required to be bound by their Terms of Use Agreement regarding Legal Affairs.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thanks for that info. But, here in Chicago they don't do that . what they do is as long as they doesn't cause a disturbance or its a mob then they'll do something . As far as 3 people to them it's just a waste of time , effort and energy.

    Gilbert Williams

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    Question Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    That is a very interesting article to have read. Now if that doesn't leave you with a blank look on your face i dont know what will.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thanks for sharing good info.

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    Cool Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Hello everyone ,
    Every law enforcement personnel should ID themselves especially in the public sector. the police here in Chicago wheather its in the store, paying a bill, etc. As, for PI we dont have to do that it is our decision if we want to do that or not. Me personaly I would just not to cause unneccesary problems

    Gilbert C Williams Sr
    GCADD1 Investigations
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    Last edited by Lynne Knight; 01-27-2008 at 05:34 PM. Reason: Forum Rules

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    Angry Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Sharky:
    New World Order, The only thing that comes to mind as to why arrest someone without proper ID. Security and Prosperity Partnership Of North America is a treaty of sorts that our president has called into play while we were asleep.

    Check out www.spp.com for yourself its coming and coming fast. If Americans, Mexicans and Canadians all stood in one room and did not speak you could not tell what nationality they were. And get this, there is talk of changing the American dollar to fit this event and also new forms of ID. What use to be American want be American anymore.

    Michael, I am so angry this happened to you.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thad,

    The URL you wanted is http://www.spp.gov/. It appears to be no later than 2006. It was posted by Department of Commerce - I have no respect for them. I am not sure that I want to read the propaganda on the SPP, but I guess I will.

    Second, thanks for your concern.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    While I can't really debate with clarity the whole scope of the issue, I can say from my own experiences that it helps to have your Driver's License on you at all times. And while I could care less if a policeman wants to see my ID (Driver's License ONLY), making it grounds for arrest for failing to produce one (when not driving of course) is at the very least a violation of the 4th Amendment.

    In my former profession one was expected to carry his/her CDL at all times as a cop could ask you to produce it at any time. Failure to do so when operating a Commercial Vehicle is grounds for arrest for operating a commercial motor vehicle without a CDL. No second chances, no "I left it at home." Go to Jail. Go Directly to Jail. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.00.

    So in short, asking for my CDL, meh. Arresting me for refusing to produce it when peaceably going about my business (and not driving), then we will have problems.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Kevin,

    You are correct about a driver's license - it proves your right to drive. If you are not driving or even in the vehicle, it has no legal value.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic Iannucci View Post
    Yes, you do indeed have the right to remain silent. What most people forget t remember is that, while you are remaining silent, te police have the authority to detain you until they are able to ascertain your identity to ensure that you are not a criminal with warrants or on some terrorist watch list. You may beat the rap, but you won't beat the ride!
    Dom is completely, 100% correct here folks. As bad as it seems to everyone, this particular little bit of law has been in effort for 20+ years and has been consitantly held up by all courts liberal and conservative. The word used is not "arrested" as the left wingers call it but Detained is the correct terminology. I personally have taken people 20 miles away to have them fingerprinted, identies confirmed and a warrants run completed. If they came back clear I said "adios, have a nice day". My problem child was now 20 miles away from my beat - on foot. Stinks I know, but completely legal.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Gary,

    Detained means that you are not free to come and go as you please. This matches the definition of 'Arrest'.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Nope. Not in any court in this country. True under a lawful detention you are not free to leave until the officer decides you are it is quite different from an arrest. For example in a DWI stop, you are stopped, asked to exit the vehicle, perform sobriety tests. If the officer believes you to be drunk you are handcuffed, placed in a patrol car, your vehicle is most likely impounded. You are then taken to provide a sample of breath. If and I say "if" you do not blow over the legal limit you are released, taken to your vehicle and cut loose. I've actually done this once. Now if you blow over the legal limit, you are then officially arrested. Everything up until that point has been a detention to detect the elements of a crime that may have taken place. Granted that I'd say 85% of the time a person is detained it eventually turns into an arrest but there are differences. So, saying all this and I will admit the general perception is they are one in the same - they are not. For the person being detained it doesn't seem any different and a good officer will make the distiction to the detainee so they know every step of the way what is taking place, in a court of law these very minor differences can make or break a case. I have advised on cases of DWI for example again to defense lawyers who want to find a mistake the officer made to get their client off. When reviewing officer's tapes the number 1 thing that gets every client off is when they fail the sobriety tests the officer says "I am placing you under arrest for DWI". That gets them off every time and is a mistake on the officer's part. I hope this explains it a little.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    It is still the inability to come and go as you please. You can be hauled down to the police station and held for hours without any rights. Detain and arrest have the same end - loss of freedom, but arrest gives you rights.

    It is legal weasel-wording.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Yup. When in the biz I would use any tool at my disposal to remove a problem child from my area of responsibility. These are legal tools awarded many years ago by the politicians voted into power by the citizens of the USA. People of the 60's movement to be exact. This is not something as a result of the new world order coming into play. It is what it is. What we don't like we have the power to change if we choose to.

  16. #56
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    As far as I'm concerned as a Law Enforcement Officer, I think everyone should carry a picture I.D. What happens if you are in an accident and are unconscious or dead? The police would have to make you a John Doe/ Jane Doe. If you have a cellphone have emergency phone numbers identified with name and ICE for in case of emergency or name and 911 for emergency notifications in case you can't tell the police or paramedic who you are.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Richard,

    There is a difference between carrying something that identifies you and lets emergency personnel notify someone on your behalf and having to carry--and produce--legal ID.

    When I was 18 (during the Vietnam War), the only things that were considered legal ID were passports and draft cards. We were required to have our draft cards on us at all times and produce them for the police if requested. We have moved on from those days of repression.

    Should people have ID for emergency purposes? Yes. Should the police be allowed to demand ID without probable cause? No.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Not to beat a dead horse but I have been thinking about this and I just gave a speech to a local PBA about cases I have worked where my job was to review officer's reports and determine if PC existed or were any search & seizure rules violated - Let me say Cops don't like this. So anyway all this had me thinking again and I simply do not have the answers I'd like.

    In the previous posts I believe Mike you said you were arrested for taking pictures on one of my lovely local boardwalks right? Now by "arrested" do you mean you were hauled in, photographed, placed in a cell, made bail and are awaiting a trial?

    OR were you simply spoken to by the police, not free to leave until your ID was verified and they found you were clear of any warrants then cut you loose without charges?

    If you were arrested using the legal definition meaning jail, I'd love more info on this. Not to share publicly here but when I do training talks (my words not theirs) I address these things so the police know what is going on and what they are doing wrong. I'd be very interested as a matter of fact. Certainly their legal departments would love to hear it.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Gary,

    I do not believe that I ever used the term 'arrested'. If I did, I did not mean a formal arrest. However, for everyone who speaks and understands English, 'detained' and 'arrested' are the same idea - not free to go.

    I received apologies from the Mayor's office, the Chief of Police, and the Patrol Commander. The County Prosecutor did not believe that the patrol officers acted legally, but refused to be explicit about it.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Harris View Post
    To All:

    As far as I am concerned, I was illegally arrested. It may have been "police business", but it was more "economic business".
    Detained, fully clarified now, Thank You. I would venture a suggestion though, if this exact instance happened to someone else who was a pedophile snapping pictures of kids and making the adults nearby nervous enough to make the call to police.......We'd all be clapping the police on the back right? I mean because then they'd just be doing their job.....right?

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Gary,

    Since when is taking photographs in public a crime?

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    This discussion can go on all day but no, no crime took place by the obvious fact you were not arrested. You got the political answer of "We are so sorry this happened..." the officers got an "unfounded" complaint in their file and everyone goes their separate ways. The reality of it is they acted correctly and most likely still do the exact same thing today - and I would advise they keep it up - and you are in the police files as a suspect contact. Life goes on.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    That was a very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

  24. #64
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    If you are taking pictures of children and adults see you taking pictures they should call the police on you. If you're a Licensed Private Investigator on a case then you should have notified the police before you even started your surveillance. You tell them your name,cellphone #, make/model of your vehicle, tag #, where you are and approximately how long you will be there. This eliminates you being detained by the police. If confronted by the police by showing your PI license you will be fine. If you're not breaking any laws, by law they can't ask you who you're watching/photographing or who hired you. This comes with experience.

  25. #65

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    This may be considered a bit off topic. But did you know that every day people are arrested in this country because an officer ran a warrants check and it returned incorrect information.
    Personally I try to avoid all contact with police Even if I'm the victim of a crime I hardly ever report it anymore.

  26. #66
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I 'm currently a LEO in Florida and have 23 years experience in NYC Corrections, NYC Police and a Sergeant for the Florida Dept. of Corrections. If you're the victim of a crime and don't report it how are we as Law Enforcement suppossed to respond and arrest the criminal that just raped you? It sounds to me like you have some issues with Law Enforcement(the people who are there to help you). Private Investigators and Law Enforcement are on the same side. Maybe you need to think about a career change and not consider Private Investigation. I know the C.J. system is broke and sometimes innocent people get convicted but if you don't trust the local,state, or federal government how can you be a PI?

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    There is corruption everywhere and if you don't report it or turn a blind eye to it and let it happen YOU ARE JUST AS GUILTY!!!

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    If you don't ID yourself to the police and show them your Private Investigator license maybe you have something to hide from the POPO!!!

  29. #69

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Hi Richard
    It's hard to tell which posts your replying to when you make multiple posts in a row without quoting.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I don't like to qoute people. I calls it like I sees it!!! POLICE EYES never go away they just get keener with more experience.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Very interesting article. Thank you for sharing.

  32. #72

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    This is an interesting lecture by a law professor and a police officer on the dangers of talking to police without a lawyer.
    http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/342.html

  33. #73
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    If you are only identifying yourself to the Police and have nothing to hide, What's the problem??? If you're a criminal or a Terrorist you will give them a false name or run like a Coward!!!

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Richard,

    If you listened to the entire program--both the law professor and the police detective, you will understand that talking to the police without an attorney is a dumb idea, especially if you are innocent.
    Michael E. Harris

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  35. #75

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    To everyone,

    It is okay for everyone to have a personal opinion, but let's make sure we maintain the utmost respect for our other members here.

    I suggest members should preface their compassion on certain statements with "In my personal opinion" so as to keep the tone within the desired dialog.

    If someone appears to make an idiotic comment, usually by stating your own belief is suffice without calling the opinion's author an idiot.

    Thank you for your support.

  36. #76

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    In my personal opinion:

    There are many good officers out there and if an officer asks me for identifcation and it is a simple request, then I will keep it simple by complying. If I am arrested falsely because of a mis-identification, then it will be by far an exception and not the rule of the day.

    In this day and age I suggest professionals and PI's should obtain the latest version of the US Passport and approved national security version of a state drivers license. Both items are now what LEO's prefer because of the new safeguards.

    Additionally, carry with you a copy of a letter from the fingerprint division of the FBI on your own prints that states "No record found". The cost for the print check and letter is about $20. The FBI will classify your prints to separate them from anyone else who might have the same DOB and POB. I usually carry the folder letter within my passport.

    And last, at anytime I may feel an officer is asking intrusive questions, I am free to ask him "Am I suspect or person of Interest? Should I refer you to my attorney?" (And then see what the officer's response is)

  37. #77

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Hi Tech

    The video I posted goes a bit further than that. Citing the case of Martha Stewart.Certainly no one thinks Martha Stewart is a terrorist.
    She was not even charged with the original crime she was being questioned about. She lied to investigators and that's why she was convicted.
    She felt she could speak to the police without an attorney and wound up in jail over it.
    The law professor and police officer both mention hat it's common for people under interrogation to say things that are false and could only lead to trouble.

    Question: "The police are here. They want to talk to me. What should I do?"

    Answer: "Make no statement to the police under any circumstances."

    - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson

  38. #78
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I found this link to be very good info. and common sense.
    Chris Holtzinger
    IPIU Private Investigator Trainee
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I am currently getting my associates degree in criminal justice. What I had learned is that if an officer of the law comes up and questions you, you have the right to just walk on by him. But it could have a different effect in different states I believe.

  40. #80
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    That depends on the situation. I'm currently a Law Enforcement Officer and if I stop and question you because of probable cause that a crime was commited and you fit the description of the perp, you are not going to just walk away from me.

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