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Thread: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

  1. #81

    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Scheck View Post
    I am currently getting my associates degree in criminal justice. What I had learned is that if an officer of the law comes up and questions you, you have the right to just walk on by him. But it could have a different effect in different states I believe.
    That's known as something called "the right of conversation" or something like that. You have the right to approach anyone and strike up a conversation and they have the right to ignore you and keep walking.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I have been remiss in this posting as I have been extremely busy working, having a rare day off I am going through all the boards I belong to to see what is going on. I am relatively happy to see the spirit of this thread continuing. The laws concerning this are mostly case law from long ago. To the best of my knowledge no new case law has arisen concerning warrantless detentions - I say detentions because arrest and detention are 2 very different things regardless of what opinions are being stated here. The rule of law has stood the test of time on this issue for many years and so far remain unchanged. As far as "the right of conversation" in theory Carl is correct. This is a very basic with no "what if's" concept. Meaning if I walk by an officer and he says Good Morning I am in no way legally obligated to either acknowledge or engage in his conversation. However, most police investigations do start out with friendly conversation. If an officer has a reasonable suspicion to talk to you they may very well say "Hey, can I talk to you?" You can say no and keep walking. Just don't be too amazed when you are approached again in a more forceful manner. In either case being respectful and cooperative will get you further from a seat in an interrogation room than not. There are always 2 ways to do things I always let the suspect dictate which way it went.
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thanks for that post it was greatly appreciated and funny, and true also.

  4. #84
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Scheck View Post
    I am currently getting my associates degree in criminal justice. What I had learned is that if an officer of the law comes up and questions you, you have the right to just walk on by him. But it could have a different effect in different states I believe.

    If an officer stops on reasonable suspicion (note to anyone that wants to argue, I said REASONABLE, let's not split hairs), say someone called and said you had a gun, YOU WILL be stopped and detained. If you attempt to walk away, you will be arrested, if you fail to identify yourself you will be arrested. We'll go back to the "arrested and detained" as being the same thing here. You will be taken into a police station, you will be fingerprinted and photographed. At that time, if you are not wanted, and you did not have a gun, you will be released.

    Your rights are not being violated, because of the reasonable suspicion.

    What is the major problem with these sort of encounters? It's armchair lawyers, people who want to say they know the law better than you, when you start giving an officer a hard time, you heighten the suspicion against you. If you start yelling and screaming, that give an officer the officer probable cause to arrest you for Disprderly Conduct, while in most states it is only a summary offense, THEY still got what they wanted, your identification, and you ended up spending a few hours in a cell and a decent fine.

    I didn't read the whole article that was originally posted, I can only go with what I read on the first page, but again something you need to look at in depth, whether or not the protest was entirely peaceful. Your definition of peaceful and the police definition might be 2 different things. Again, shouting is a very grey area, to what extent is shouting ok and when does it become disorderly?

    In PA:
    § 5503. Disorderly conduct.
    (a) Offense defined.--A person is guilty of disorderly
    conduct if, with intent to cause public inconvenience, annoyance
    or alarm, or recklessly creating a risk thereof, he:
    (1) engages in fighting or threatening, or in violent or
    tumultuous behavior;
    (2) makes unreasonable noise;
    (3) uses obscene language, or makes an obscene gesture;
    or
    (4) creates a hazardous or physically offensive
    condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose of
    the actor.

    If any of the participants were involved in any of the above, then whether you want to be technical or not, a crime is being committed and the police have the right to detain you and ask you to identify yourself.

    As I said, I can't speak for the overall peacefulness of the protesters, I am trying to give as little insight as to my point of view.

    Anyone wants to argue this point, be my guest. I really don't feel like retorting anyone's opinion. This was just mine.

    I also want to go on record as saying, people who don't know, really have no business saying that "cops don't know the law" I might not be able to tell you how far from the curb you can keep your trashcan, or how low the tread can be on your tires before it becomes illegal, I can 0000 sure tell you the laws concerning, mere encounters, investigative detentions, unlawful assemblies and stop and frisk rules. Why? Because working in a city which has a lot of gang violence, drug problems and homicides related to both, it's my job to know. Is a peaceful protest the same? No... Is it governed by the same laws? You bet.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    mj fletcher///very interesting and political

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    As far as I am concerned, the government has out done itself this time. They can and will violate your rights without you ever even knowing about it. Since 9/11 our leaders have tried to find every way possible to restrict our freedoms and take away our rights and we are letting them get away with it. It's always wrapped up in some form of "we are protecting you against terrorists". I think it's a bunch of 0000! With my recent history of dealing with the FBI and the State Department and how they "handle things" I don't believe anything they say to me anymore.

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    Michael Harris is offline Lifetime Professional Management Member

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Jackie,

    Lately, I have noticed that my local police patrol officers are giving bad advice. I live in New Jersey, which is unfriendly for knife owners. The police have been telling people that knives in NJ cannot have a blade that is longer than the width of your four fingers. Having read the law on knives, I know that this state does not have any length limit. The police are committing the Unlicensed Practice of Law (UPL), which is a crime, when they give out information like this.

    Much of what the police do is not in accordance with law. The police are about the most ill-informed group when it comes to the law.

    I will not mention the group with whom I work, but I have a legal plan that lets me talk to my lawyers on a daily basis. I recently had them spend three days researching knives--I am a collector and can own and display any edged weapon I want (maybe not a ballistic knife) without regard to what is legal to carry. The law is silent on ownership.

    The bottom line is that the police mean well, but they are not lawyers and cannot legally interpret the law.

    Forgive me if I went a little off topic, but the issue is The Police Do Not Have The Answers.
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    Jackie Stewart--'s Avatar
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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Michael,
    I don't know about the police, I have been arrested once about 12 years ago and they had to drop the charges against me. The city was afraid that I would sue them for false arrest and I probably would have won. But that is another story.
    My recent experience has been with the FBI, State Department, and the military (specifically the hostage working group) during the investigation into my son's disappearance along with 4 other people from his company.
    Although we know it was an inside job, no one has looked that hard at the managing partner or the director of security for their part in it.(if they had one)
    I buried my only child last year and the only thing I have been told so far is that they are still investigating, and it's classified.
    There is a book written about it called Big Boy Rules by Steve Fainaru from the Washington Post. Except for one minor detail, the book is spot on.
    That is what has fueled me to learn about private investigation. I don't believe anything that anyone tells me anymore. My son deserves better than that. I'm going to find out what really happened to him if it kills me.
    The point is, all law enforcement, to me, is suspect anymore. I don't care where you operate, in this country or another one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Harris View Post
    Jackie,

    Lately, I have noticed that my local police patrol officers are giving bad advice. I live in New Jersey, which is unfriendly for knife owners. The police have been telling people that knives in NJ cannot have a blade that is longer than the width of your four fingers. Having read the law on knives, I know that this state does not have any length limit. The police are committing the Unlicensed Practice of Law (UPL), which is a crime, when they give out information like this.

    Much of what the police do is not in accordance with law. The police are about the most ill-informed group when it comes to the law.

    I will not mention the group with whom I work, but I have a legal plan that lets me talk to my lawyers on a daily basis. I recently had them spend three days researching knives--I am a collector and can own and display any edged weapon I want (maybe not a ballistic knife) without regard to what is legal to carry. The law is silent on ownership.

    The bottom line is that the police mean well, but they are not lawyers and cannot legally interpret the law.

    Forgive me if I went a little off topic, but the issue is The Police Do Not Have The Answers.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Thanks David for a good story, this shows us that those who are in the countries which are using the Identity Cards to respect the constitution and the rule of law of the entire countries and being trained investigators we ought to be good example in our country/community.

    Thanks.

    Sincerely

    Joseph Sawe
    New Forum Member

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    I have been in other countries where I was asked to show my passport/id etc. If an law enforcement office ask for ID then just give it to him...refusing to supply information to the police will cause alarm and start up a situation which could be avoided by showing the ID. They got what they deserved. If you do not have your ID on hand then let them know and give them as much information that you can and be cooperative. I have seen people go to jail for refusing to show their id's and if they would have calmed down and spoke with the office and complied they would have went home and not to a jail cell.

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    Marcus Fletcher is offline Lifetime Professional Management Member


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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    Great info i will pass this on.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    "This [type of] law I love. It's lawyers I suspect" Winston Churchill.

    The right to cross State boundaries "UNMOLESTED", according to the Constitution is your right.

    In 1939 Germany instituted a national passport, it had to be shown at every street crossing, if you where in a town that you didn't reside in you where questioned as to your business there. Starting to sound familiar?

    You have the right to refuse a breath analyzer here in NY. They in turn reserve the right to charge you with failure to comply, compulsory DWI, among others. You are required to carry Identification on your person, and I can tell you first hand what happens if you refuse to show it.

    (Ah, the thing's we think we can get away with in our misspent youth!)

    Just my armed chair opinion, right or wrong.

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    Re: PI UNION MEMBER: Author of "Police arrest people for refusing to ID themselves?"

    this is a subject in which all are concerned,(or should be). There is a lot of good debate, as well as good info here... it is too important to spew off at the mouth, until we have all the facts at hand... so with that point, I shall shut my mouth and do some research.

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