Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 44

Thread: National ID Card

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182

    National ID Card

    I was listening the other day to the radio and this topic came on. I was very interested in it and I thought I would do some more research on it. This is what I came up with. Let me know what you think.

    THE Government has embarked on its most reckless policy to date in pursuing the idea of national identity cards. The initiative will fundamentally change the nature of government and the character of the nation.
    This is inevitable because the modern ID card is no simple piece of plastic. It is the visible component of a web of interactive technology that fuses the most intimate characteristics of the individual with the machinery of state.
    It is the means by which the powers of government will be streamlined and amplified. Almost every national ID card system introduced in the past 15 years has contained three components with the potential to devastate personal freedom and privacy.
    First, each citizen is obliged to surrender a finger or retina print to a national database. This information is combined with other personal data such as race, age and residential status. A photograph completes the dossier.
    In addition, its introduction must be accompanied by a substantial increase in police power. After all, authorities will want to be able to demand the card in a wide range of circumstances, and people must be compelled to comply.
    The most significant, yet most subtle, element is that the card and its numbering system will permit the linking of information between all government departments. The number is ultimately the most powerful element of the system.
    Such a system, linked through tens of thousand of card readers to a central database, is the conventional means of dealing with the problem of counterfeit cards.
    But the technology gap between governments and organised crime has narrowed so much that even the most highly secure cards are available as blanks, weeks after their official introduction. Criminals and terrorists can move more freely and more safely with several fake identities than they ever could in a country with multiple forms of ID.
    To make sure people are who they claim to be, the new generation of cards, such as those introduced this year in Malaysia, incorporate a chip containing the "biometric" - a fingerprint, retina or hand scan of the holder. The card and the finger are placed into a reader, and the person is "validated".
    Authorities can gain further personal information stored on the chip to confirm the holder's identity. This validation process can be done anywhere - on the streets, in airports, schools, banks, swimming pools or office buildings.
    You will not hear any government emphasising these aspects. Instead, the new ID systems are benignly promoted as "citizen cards" that guarantee entitlement to benefits and services.
    Five years ago, the Government quietly buried proposals for ID cards when it discovered that they would cost billions of pounds more than expected, would do little to prevent crime, and might become wildly unpopular.
    How much more unpopular will they be when people learn that a scan of their body parts will be required?
    If an ID card was unworkable five years ago, why would it work now? The short answer is that it would not - unless the biometric were added and the whole system verified through a national database. That is not a card: it is a national surveillance infrastructure.
    If such a scheme is introduced in the current climate, three outcomes are inevitable. First, a high-security card will become an internal passport, demanded in limitless situations. (Don't leave home without it.)
    Second, millions of people will be severely inconvenienced each year through lost, stolen or damaged cards, or through failure of computer systems or the biometric reading machinery.
    Finally, the cards will inevitably be abused by officials who will use them as a mechanism for prejudice, discrimination or harassment.
    No one has been able to identify any country where cards have deterred terrorists. To achieve this, a government would require measures unthinkable in a free society.
    The Government thus faces a choice. Either it introduces a high-security biometric card that will challenge every tenet of freedom, or it introduces a low-security card that will soon be available to criminals and terrorists on the black market.
    This article can be found at:
    http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...29/wfor229.xml
    And a brief history:

    National ID cards have long been advocated as a means to enhance national security, unmask potential terrorists, and guard against illegal immigrants. They are in use in many countries around the world including most European countries, Hong Kong, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand.
    Americans have consistently rejected the idea of a national ID card. In 1971 the Social Security Administration task force on the SSN rejected the extension of the Social Security Number to the status of an ID card. In 1973, the Health, Education and Welfare (HEW) Secretary's Advisory Committee on Automated Personal Data Systems concluded that a national identifier was not desirable. In 1976, the Federal Advisory Committee on False Identification rejected the idea of an identifier. In 1977, the Carter Administration reiterated that the SSN was not to become an identifier, and in 1981 the Reagan Administration stated that it was "explicitly opposed" to the creation of a national ID card. Throughout the debates over health care reform, the Clinton Administration also constantly stressed that it was opposed to a national identifier. In 1999 Congress repealed a controversial provision in the llegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 which gave authorization to include Social Security Numbers on drivers' licenses.
    In response to the tragic events of September 11, 2001, there has been renewed interest in the creation of national ID cards. Larry Ellison, head of Oracle Corporation, the California based software company, has called for the development of a national identification system and offered to donate the technology to make this possible. He proposed ID cards with embedded digitized thumbprints and photographs of all legal residents in the U.S. UK Home Secretary David Blunkett is also considering proposals for a national ID card.
    This article can be found here:
    http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    99
    its like gun control they basically already know who is who. sounds like hitler
    deverne girdler

  3. #3
    Flora Porter's Avatar
    Flora Porter is offline * Certified SPI
    Distinguished Member of Private Investigators Forum

    Member of International Private Investigators Union (IPIU)
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,021
    Thanks Ada,

    This is good to know.



    Flora

  4. #4
    I am not particularly fond of a "Big Brother" society, but it appears to be heading increasingly in that direction (especially since 9-11). I think if I am to feel safe in my own home (whereever that may be in the world) I am willing to give up enough privacy to make that happen. I do not think getting a National ID card is cost-effective. Anything can be forged, given enough time (that's just good common sense). It will take more time to argue for or against National IDs (i.e. the previous administrations) than actually implenting it, so why bother at all? If you think about it, if you have a bank account, paying a mortgage on a home, or have any outstanding debt. etc., you are known and can be found. I process claims for Federal employees and their families for Tennessee, and it would be foolish of me to think that I am not known or not on someone's "list." Only the "bad guys" should be truly leary of any form of national identification. I was in London recently and I noticed that there are cameras everywhere. As far as I could tell, no one minded that they were being watched constantly. Now, I have no doubt that there was quite a fuss before they were installed, but the cameras are there and the only serious criminal problem seems to be pick-pockets. On one side , it is creepy to be watched. On the other, me being seen by someone in a camera, the person knows that I am not doing anything wrong, and I know I am less likely to come to any harm.
    And on the Patriot Act...I understand the intention, but it has gone too far. Existing laws were already in place in regard to 9-11 but they were not used. Pity to say the least.
    It would be wonderful if there was something upon which the majority could agree. I am as open-minded as anyone, but I am not THAT optimistic.
    Have a great day.
    Kristie

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    99
    we have enough laws on the books enforce the ones that we do have should be allright. we donot need the goverment doing our thinking for us. not without just cause
    and problay cuase and court order a person with common sense and of normal growth patterns should be able to figure out the good and the bad. we started this country becuase of england goverment control.i'm of the viet nam era and lost alot friends over there. they did not fiight for this country invane. no person shoudl lose one of thier rights becuse of someone or something. how would you like being compared to someone esle for what they did wrong and not you. even itis a famliy member you have your rights to. god first country second.
    deverne girdler
    5593

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    I think if I am to feel safe in my own home (whereever that may be in the world) I am willing to give up enough privacy to make that happen.
    Kristie,exactly how much privacy are you willing to give up? How many of your rights are you willing to give up in the name of terror? The government seems to push until the people push back. If nobody fights back, the government will take more and more from your freedom. Are you willing to give that up that easily?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    61
    Quote Originally Posted by Deverne Girdler
    god first country second.
    deverne girdler
    5593
    Amen to that!!

    Angela Watson

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    91
    For those of you that have said you would be willing to give up any rights to feel safe.... please consider the following...


    It is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. Herman Goering (Hitlers right hand man)

    Does that quote sound familiar ? I hear President Bush and Vice President Cheney say almost those EXACT words everyday on one news program or another! That ALONE should scare you!

    That is EXACTLY what our government is doing to us! They make us so fearful that we are willing to do anything they want to fee safe. And if don’t just follow they we are considered unpatriotic! I LOVE this country BECAUSE of what it stands for. If we give up our rights, ANY of them, it will not be the same country!
    Take some advise from older wiser men that have seen this before, go to this site to see what they have to say.81 Year Old US WWII Veteran


    George W's grandfather Prescott Bush was among the chief American fundraisers for the Nazi Party in the 1930s and '40s
    You can find more about this at Prescott Bush

    President Bush has a lower IQ (91 IQ) than most elementary school kids! I am not handing over ANY of my rights to him!

    Anyone that would like more info feel free to email me and I will send you what I have.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    17
    this is in the Bible. For those who are christians can back me up. This basically talks about the New World Order. When all countries fall under 1 currency and Gonvernment. And it starts with this.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    91
    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Pytcher
    this is in the Bible. For those who are christians can back me up. This basically talks about the New World Order. When all countries fall under 1 currency and Gonvernment. And it starts with this.
    Joseph, it also says in the bible, I believe in the book of revelations, that when the end is near we will all be given a number in order to get our basic needs such as food and shelter and it clearly states that we are NOT to let them give us that number. And this ID is the beginning of that also.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    17
    It is just scary to think that it is all starting. It also says, when it is near, the weather will "get alot worse" in my own words. Have you see Florida lately? 4 Hurricanes? When does this happen so often?

  12. #12
    I will admit that I have become resigned to what has happened in the world. I had resolved myself to, "Well. I'm a good person. Why should I care?" I watch/listen to the news everyday, and Ada, I understand what you are saying. In your words, I am present to the fact that I should not let things that are not immediatley in-my-face fall by the wayside. I voted early today, and I hope like mad that, despite whoever is elected (whenever that happens), the people shoved back hard in effective and positive ways.
    Thank you, Ada.
    Have a great day.
    Kristie

  13. #13
    Samir Tulic -'s Avatar
    Samir Tulic - is offline Private Investigator Forum Member

    Member of International Private Investigators Union (IPIU)
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    41
    I got my card yestrday.Signed my Ethics Agreement,and ordered my badge.Thanks again IPUI!!!

  14. #14
    Samir Tulic -'s Avatar
    Samir Tulic - is offline Private Investigator Forum Member

    Member of International Private Investigators Union (IPIU)
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    41
    Quote Originally Posted by Samir Tulic
    I got my ID card yestrday.Signed my Ethics Agreement,and ordered my badge.Thanks again IPUI!!!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Deverne Girdler
    we have enough laws on the books enforce the ones that we do have should be allright. we donot need the goverment doing our thinking for us. not without just cause
    and problay cuase and court order a person with common sense and of normal growth patterns should be able to figure out the good and the bad. we started this country becuase of england goverment control.i'm of the viet nam era and lost alot friends over there. they did not fiight for this country invane. no person shoudl lose one of thier rights becuse of someone or something. how would you like being compared to someone esle for what they did wrong and not you. even itis a famliy member you have your rights to. god first country second.
    deverne girdler
    5593
    Thank you for you thread. I understand that you do not care for big government.
    Toward the end of my original thread I stated that there were laws already in place but were not used in regard to 9-11 that made the Patriot Act a mute point (if that was not clear to you, I apologize).
    I am not sure how often you keep up with the news or your exact views of the media, but here the commercials seem to cater to the apathetic and the ignorant. The ignorant being the ones who considered History boring in school; so they didn't pay attention. The apathetic being the ones who simply could care less so long as they have the basics.
    I have an overabundant respect for people in the military. One of my best friends was an analyst for the Air Force in Vietnam. I have 2 friends whose fathers served many tours in Vietnam. It is with great courage that they were willing to share any part of the experience. After hours of conversation, I am all too aware of how much the soliders gave of themselves emotionally, physically, and spiritually.
    You would be surprised how often I am mistaken for someone else.
    May this thread find you well.
    Kristie

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    I am not sure how often you keep up with the news or your exact views of the media, but here the commercials seem to cater to the apathetic and the ignorant. The ignorant being the ones who considered History boring in school; so they didn't pay attention. The apathetic being the ones who simply could care less so long as they have the basics.

    Kristie, you are right. And the government likes it that way. They want a bunch of ignorants because they are easier to control. If you don't know the laws, they can take your rights away without you even noticing.
    Don't get me started on the public school system. Nobody is challanged and the kids don't learn anything beyond the basics. It's no wonder most of the people are ignorant.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ada Baciu
    Don't get me started on the public school system. Nobody is challanged and the kids don't learn anything beyond the basics. It's no wonder most of the people are ignorant.
    US Public System comparing to other civilized countries is useless. I came from Kiev, Ukraine where in 6th grade we were being taught geography, chemistry and physics. Go figure, I was taught the same thing here in my 1st year of college. In regards to politics, yes, the government does like the ignorant.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    Quote Originally Posted by Irene Keselman
    US Public System comparing to other civilized countries is useless. I came from Kiev, Ukraine where in 6th grade we were being taught geography, chemistry and physics. Go figure, I was taught the same thing here in my 1st year of college. In regards to politics, yes, the government does like the ignorant.

    Irene, I know what you are talking about. I took the same classes starting 6th grade. US has a different system. I understand if they don't want to introduce Physics in 6th grade, but I don't understand why they don't go beyond the basics.
    Believe me, I remember how happy I was to have it so easy in school. Now, I am not that happy to know that my kids are going to go through this system. I am sending mine to private schools.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ada Baciu
    Kristie, you are right. And the government likes it that way. They want a bunch of ignorants because they are easier to control. If you don't know the laws, they can take your rights away without you even noticing.
    Don't get me started on the public school system. Nobody is challanged and the kids don't learn anything beyond the basics. It's no wonder most of the people are ignorant.
    I know what you mean. My mother is a public high school teacher in Nashville. She's had to deal with a ridiculous amount of 0000 (WAY too many to mention here, I promise). Despite some of the people who are paid more than her (not having the obvious integrity or common sense to back up their position), she is incredibly committed to her students. She is awesome. She is one of the reasons why I want to be a private investigator. I want to feel as passionate helping people as my mother.
    Have a great day and Happy Halloween, Ada.
    Kristie

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    22
    Samir,

    How longdid it take you to recieve your ID?

    Cassandra

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    22
    Joseph,

    I 100% agree with your statement.

    Cassandra

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra Pack
    Samir,

    How longdid it take you to recieve your ID?

    Cassandra
    Cassandra, please check out this thread: Look for Photo Credentials

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    Cassandra,

    If you can't find the answer to your question there, you can also check out
    Photo and Credentials Forum

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Barbara Ryan
    For those of you that have said you would be willing to give up any rights to feel safe.... please consider the following...


    It is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country. Herman Goering (Hitlers right hand man)

    Does that quote sound familiar ? I hear President Bush and Vice President Cheney say almost those EXACT words everyday on one news program or another! That ALONE should scare you!

    That is EXACTLY what our government is doing to us! They make us so fearful that we are willing to do anything they want to fee safe. And if don’t just follow they we are considered unpatriotic! I LOVE this country BECAUSE of what it stands for. If we give up our rights, ANY of them, it will not be the same country!
    Take some advise from older wiser men that have seen this before, go to this site to see what they have to say.81 Year Old US WWII Veteran
    I wouldn't say ANYTHING to feel safe. Going into this war many americans were "pumped up" about it, but later, when we found the military was lacking troups and support it needed, the talk of the draft quickly changed many minds. Look at the last time there was a draft, ie. Vietnam. Even the word "draft" makes many young people (the ones who have to fight) as well as older people (the parents and relatives of the young people) think twice about this War that "won't be ended by anyone but the USA."

    The bottom line is the Gov't can't keep pushing our buttons in the direction they want, or else someone says "now wait just a second..."

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    45
    Back when I was in high school I remember hearing talks about placing chips in people to make sure that person is who they say they are. But I believe that it is just a way to keep track of everyone. Which to me it's being done already. All we are is a number, and with doing this just proves it even more.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    182
    Quote Originally Posted by Silvia A Andrade
    Back when I was in high school I remember hearing talks about placing chips in people to make sure that person is who they say they are. But I believe that it is just a way to keep track of everyone. Which to me it's being done already. All we are is a number, and with doing this just proves it even more.

    Good point, Silvia.
    Check out this thread and tell me what you think. My opinion is that this is just the beginning.
    Click here

  27. #27
    John G - is offline Retired Forum Moderator

    Private Investigators Forums
    Sponsored by the International Private Investigators Union (IPIU)
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,770
    National ID Card-first step to reduce a democracy to a totalitarian state.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    115
    Its seems to me we could spend those millions of dollars some where else,.... Like say healthcare in this country? The homeless, the elderly, schools, The list goes on. The social security card is already abused in this country and elsware. Stop spyware, house the poor better than we do now. Give us some basic health care.We are the most powerful nation on the planet, yet most cant even get a basic check up. How about fuel prices? I think our prioritys are messed up. I agree with you all.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    65
    I definitelythink we could find a better way to spend millions of dollars. The government is using the fear of further terrorists attach to control people and to infringe upon our right to certain privacies. We should all do a little more research before we just accept that these things are needed.

  30. #30
    Derek E Moore is offline Lifetime Professional Management Member

    Member of:
    International Private Investigators Union (IPIU)
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    162
    thanks for the info

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    34
    I am a retired member of NYPD. I am opposed to the idea of a national I.D. system. I don't think that a natioanl I.D. sytem, if such a thing were in place prior to the events of 9/11, would have effectively prevented those men from boarding the ill-fated airplanes and carrying out their homoicidal acts. NYC has had one of the most stringent gun-control policies in this nation - which is subscribed to only by the law-abiding citizenry. A national identity system would require a major change in current policy regarding police 'stop and frisk' rules. There would have to be permission for the police to stop anyone without a 'reasonable suspicion' that some mis-conduct was happening or about to happen. Restrictions on our freedom must be guarded very jealously if we are to continue being the world's finest example of democracy.

  32. #32
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    34
    To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson: one who places security over freedom should have neither. I DO believe in securing our borders from terrorist attacks but at what price? It seems that the Patriot Act/National ID card is actually playing into the hands of the terrorists by taking away some of the liberties that we have sometimes taken for granted. There are ways to curb the terrorist threat out there but taking away the rights of the common man and woman isn't one of them.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    6
    Yes,it helps to identify yourself.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    99
    brian and randall i agree with you not at the rights of the poeple. the poeple should work togerther to sovle the problem its an american problem together we can.
    deverne girdler
    5593

  35. #35
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    94

    Exclamation

    Alot of things are going on today that our government is doing , that I agree and disagree with. But we have to look to the bigger picture, (for those who believe in god) everything that is set in place is for a specific reason. I do know you cannot fault teh President for things his gandfather or father did... although they are related, they are different people. Now I will not say yes I am or no I do not support Bush, because that does not matter, what does is he is the President and even if I do or do not agree with him, I respect his choices. The good thing is we still all have choices to make. There are allways repurcutions of the choices we make, but we deal with it and move on.

  36. #36
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    18
    I read the above posts, and agree that we do not need a national ID card. You would be amazed at what the government and law enforcement already know about terrorists in this country as well as what they know about everyone else. I have been privy to some interesting and classified information and I can honestly tell you that national ID cards are not in our best interests.

  37. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    34
    I would disagree with the idea that national I.D. cards are, "...not in our best interest." I certainly believe that they are - as do many other well-intentioned people. However, I believe that they are not necessary - that they are in fact an un-necessary infringement upon our freedoms. We just don't need them!

  38. #38
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    363
    This is a very complicated subject. Thankfully it will not manifest itself in the near future as we are not able to document way to many people now here legally or otherwise. On the subject of BUSH BASHING, i would just like to say while i may not agree with all his policies, i will support him and remind those of you who served in any military we support our "Commander and Cheif". Do not let any outside influinces divide and conquer us.
    In the biblical portion of this, the day is coming, i hope we are ready. IMO We are seeing the last days.

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    California
    Posts
    34
    Why do we need I.D. cards - and all that goes with them - a new department to take photos, print cards, laminate them and send them to every citizen. we already have a Passport process that would serve just as well and doesn't require expenditures for a new agency. Furthermore, many citizens already have them.

  40. #40
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    363

    Great Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian McMenamin
    Why do we need I.D. cards - and all that goes with them - a new department to take photos, print cards, laminate them and send them to every citizen. we already have a Passport process that would serve just as well and doesn't require expenditures for a new agency. Furthermore, many citizens already have them.
    Brian,

    Best comment yet! I would be glad to update my passport with a security device embedded in the intrest of security. My training in terrorism briefed on other countries who already use this technology for thier passports.
    Cheers,
    Steve Lofing

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •