Re: Ohio Peace Officer Certification
Quote:
Originally posted by Kelly A Smith
I was wondering if having an Ohio Peace Officer Certification would give me any kind of advantage in the process of becoming a liscensed PI? I hold no commission with any department but I have my certification. Would this allow me to bypass any steps in the process? Can I use some of the hours earned gaining my certification towards anything in this area?
Thanks,
Kelly
Kelly,
I would think that your OPOTC would at least go towards Education on the PI License Application. Toward Experience I am not sure.
I would actually like to know, also. Since, I was thinking about going to the Police Academy.
Relieved but not totally clear
Dear Cynthia,
First of all, Happy Mother's Day!.
Secondly, I understand, now, that the exemption I quoted applies to another situation, like a shady, unethical business competing covertly against another.
Thirdly, I see where the Law says a person is exempt if he/she is working for an attorney," Attorneys at law or any expert hired by an attorney at law for consultation or litigation purposes;
"; however, I do not see the Law stating any exemptions for a person doing investigative work under the license of an agency.
Although I think you are absolutely right, "If you are employed by a private investigative agency, you will not have to concern yourself with licensing matters. That will be the duty of your employer.", do you know, off hand, of any documentation a person could gather to demonstrate to an agency to support the claim that he/she could legally perform duties for them?
Additionally, thanks for taking the time to respond to my uncertainty.
P.S. Save yourself any extra effort on my account. I found what I was looking for in writing. Under 4749.13 Prohibitions
"Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to require any employee of a class A, B, or C licensee to obtain a class A, B, or C license, provided that an employee shall be registered by an licensee when required by section 4749.03 of the Revised Code."
There is more to read; however, as you stated, he/she could work for an agency and it is the agency's responsibility to register all their employees.
? would a student need to register
Dear Legal Affairs:
There is a section concerning the formal registration of employees under Ohio Law for Private Investigators:
1301:4-5-11 Registration of employees
(A) Each licensee shall register his investigator and security guard employees with the department of commerce.
(B) Each licensee shall file an application to register a new investigator or security guard employee with the department of commerce no later than seven business days after the employee's name is posted on the licensee's payroll records. The licensee must post any employee's name on the licensee's payroll records before that employee works any assignment for the licensee. The licensee must submit, on forms provided by the department, verification of the employee's name, date of birth, and social security number as well as one readable set of fingerprints of the employee to be registered.
(C) Within ten business days after the termination of a registrant's employment, the licensee shall notify the department of commerce on forms provided by the department of such termination, and submit the registrant's identification card for cancellation.
(D) For purposes of this rule, "business day" does not include Saturday or Sunday. Filings postmarked on the applicable business day shall be considered to have been timely filed.
HISTORY: Eff 1-1-70; 8-10-89 Rule promulgated under: RC 119.03 Rule authorized by: RC 4749.02 Rule amplifies: RC 4749.06
My question is, if a person were to obtain work experience as a student from an investigator, like the mentorship Education Direct encourages, would he/she have to formally register with the Department of Commerce in the state of Ohio to perform investigative duties, providing he /she was not on the payroll?
Re: ? would a student need to register
Quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm Rheuban
My question is, if a person were to obtain work experience as a student from an investigator, like the mentorship Education Direct encourages, would he/she have to formally register with the Department of Commerce in the state of Ohio to perform investigative duties, providing he /she was not on the payroll?
Not unless the employer were a "licensee", which means an agency that both receives a state PI license and is conducting assignments that require a license.
Some agencies use their PI license to advertise to obtain assignments that do not require a PI license. And if they have an employee working a non-regulated assignment, then there is no requirement.
Whenever you read a statute that says "licensee", that means a company or person who is required to have a license and whose assignments require a license.
Re: Re: ? would a student need to register
Dear Mary Lynn,
Thanks for the response. My state, Ohio, seems rigorous compared to other states in regulating P.I. work. The Department of Commerce, Division of Real Estate and Professional Licensing is the controlling body. When I called them to ask the same question, they replied that whatever I do, I have to put it in writing and mail it to their legal department.
Another part of this law that is unclear to me are the exemptions to having to be registered to work with insurance people. I am not sure if I understand the difference between:
Certified public insurance adjusters that hold a certificate of authority issued pursuant to sections 3951.01 to 3951.09 of the Revised Code, while the adjuster is investigating the cause of or responsibility for a fire, accident, or other damage to property with respect to a claim or claims for loss or damage under a policy of insurance covering real or personal property;
And An independent insurance adjuster who, as an individual, an independent contractor, an employee of an independent contractor, adjustment bureau association, corporation, insurer, partnership, local recording agent, managing general agent, or self-insurer, engages in the business of independent insurance adjustment, or any person who supervises the handling of claims except while acting as an employee of an insurer licensed in this state while handling claims pertaining to specific policies written by that insurer.
Would I be legal going to an insurance agent and seeing if I could do some investigative work for him/her?
Thanks again for trying to explain these legal terms in layman's terms. I think I should know the legal ramifications of what I am getting into, before I get into anything.
Re: Relieved but not totally clear
Quote:
Originally posted by Malcolm Rheuban
[however, I do not see the Law stating any exemptions for a person doing investigative work under the license of an agency.
Although I think you are absolutely right, "If you are employed by a private investigative agency, you will not have to concern yourself with licensing matters. That will be the duty of your employer.", do you know, off hand, of any documentation a person could gather to demonstrate to an agency to support the claim that he/she could legally perform duties for them?
Malcolm,
In the initial material I received from IPIU, there was a section that stated a P.I. trainee was not required to have an individual license if employed by an agency with a license. I hope I read this accurately, since it was one deciding factor in my becoming a trainee!
Amber D.:)
Re: One crazy question is allowed--here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Neal Naughton
My crazy question is this: If I'm thinking working for myself as a PI and the State of Ohio requires two years of experience, what constitutes two years? Is it 24 months which is 17,520 hours long, or is it 516 working days, or...?
Exactly what is meant by 2 years experience? --NFN
Go to the Licensing Forum for PI's, and post your question in the OHIO Licensing topic. :)
Re: Re: Relieved but not totally clear
Quote:
Originally posted by Amber Djukic
...stated a P.I. trainee was not required to have an individual license if employed by an agency with a license. I hope I read this accurately, since it was one deciding factor in my becoming a trainee!
Amber D.:)
Please read the first comment posted in this Topic. It contains a list of 18 EXEMPTIONS for private investigators that do not need a separate private investigators license from Ohio. Some of those exemptions include types of firms and agencys (such as law firms that hire private investigators) whereby the PI works under their professional license.
Here's my question/dilema
It states you need 4000 hours of experience or education; I am currently employed by the Juvenile court which IS a government agency. I've been there for 2 years, and I'm in my second year of a 2 year degree in criminal justice. Would these meet the requirements for experience and/or education in order to recieve a license?
Thanks in advance for the information
My Opinion of the Ohio PI Licensing Regulations: Part 1 – The Setup
Hello all my fellow Ohioans. I’ve been doing some research . . .
I know this is a very long post, and I’m hoping to get some good feedback out of it. If you have the interest, bear with me and read on!
Quote:
Beginning of the DISCLAIMER
I am not a lawyer. I don’t even play one on TV. What I have done for longer than I care to remember is interpret and implement various hazardous materials (hazmat) regulations in the commercial and government sectors. My evaluation of the Ohio code and regulations regarding PI licensing is based on my experience in regulatory research and interpretation in the aforementioned area of expertise. Therefore, the following is provided as furthering the discussion, and not as authoritative guidance.
If you want to know more about me:
http://www.ipiu.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19151
End of the DISCLAIMER
If you’re still with me, let’s go. If you’re not, then you’re not reading this, but I have to say I can’t blame you . . .
The regulatory analysis that I have performed in hazmat management begins with a simple question: If I pursue a certain course of action, will I get in trouble? Let’s apply this to the Ohio PI Licensing discussion rephrase the question: If I do some type of investigative work in Ohio and I am not a licensed PI, will I get into trouble? I think we should use examples as a framework for the discussion. However, before I give you examples pertinent to our discussion here, let me define trouble – getting hurt, hurting someone else, getting fired, getting fined, going to jail. Got the point? Good, let’s move on . . .
My Opinion of the Ohio PI Licensing Regulations: Part 2 – Examples for Discussion
Example 1: Your best friend knows you are trying to become a PI in Ohio. She just me a new guy, really likes him, but wants to be careful and “check him out.” Knowing that you know something about this, she asks you for help. You are not a licensed PI. The question: If you help her, will you get in trouble?
Example 2: You are working as an employee for a Licensed PI firm. The client is someone you don’t know, and has come to the firm for the same reasons as in example #1. The PI in charge of the case assigns it to you with instructions on what they want as the scope of the investigation.
Example 3: Same as #2, however, you are an independent contractor.
Example 4: You are not licensed. You take out an ad that says “I’m a PI!” Your phone rings. Your client is the guy dating the woman in the above examples and wants her checked out. You give him a price, he says O.K., and off you go.
My Opinion of the Ohio PI Licensing Regulations: Part 3 – The Regulatory Discussion
What are the answers? Let’s read the regulations:
Ohio Revised Code 4749.01
Definitions
As used in this chapter:
(A) "Private investigator" means any person who engages in the business of private investigation.
(B) "Business of private investigation" means, except when performed by one excluded under division (H) of this section, the conducting, for hire, in person or through a partner or employees, of any investigation relevant to any crime or wrong done or threatened, or to obtain information on the identity, habits, conduct, movements, whereabouts, affiliations, transactions, reputation, credibility, or character of any person, or to locate and recover lost or stolen property, or to determine the cause of or responsibility for any libel or slander, or any fire, accident, or damage to property, or to secure evidence for use in any legislative, administrative, or judicial investigation or proceeding.
Your first reaction is to say “Look at division (H) and see if I fall into one of the exempt categories.” Good, that’s what you should do, and you did, and your not, so what’s next?
Let’s look at this again – a PI in Ohio is one who “engages in the business of private investigation.” In other words, if you are not in the business, you are not a PI, and you’re out of the regulations. This is important, so let me say it another way – in order to be bound by the regulations, the regulations have to define you as being within the scope. If you don’t fall within the defined scope, you are outside the regulatory jurisdiction, and you are free to pursue your dreams. (Unless, of course, there’s another regulation binding you, but as far as I can tell ORC 4749 and OAC 1301:5-4, which we’ll get to in a minute, is all you got.)
The question now is whether you are engaged in the business of private investigation, which is the purpose of 4749.01(B) above. Cut to the chase – remember, the exceptions don’t apply for our discussion - the code explicitly says “for hire.” What’s that mean? Hire (noun), compensation for the use of a thing, or for labor or service (Black’s Law Dictionary). So, a PI in Ohio is engaged in the business when they do PI work for compensation.
Sounds like all of us. I certainly don’t work for free. But, wait a minute, what’s compensation? Black’s again – “remuneration for services rendered, whether in salary, fees, or commissions.” Remuneration? “Payment, reimbursement, reward, recompense, salary, compensation.” Compensation? Didn’t we start there? Gotta love that Black’s Law Dictionary!!
My Opinion of the Ohio PI Licensing Regulations: Part 4 – Back to Example 1
So let’s go back to the examples. Here’s my opinion on Example 1: If you do a public records check on the Internet, give her the results, and she pays you for the cost of the search and buys you a six-pack, what’s the crime? You did something anyone can do, and she simply showed her appreciation. You did not solicit her through advertising or by hanging a sign on your door, she didn’t call you because of an ad in the yellow pages or a flier, and you have never said you were a PI in the state of Ohio. You did a favor, she said thanks, get over your bad self and have a brew.
How about the rest of the examples? In 2 & 3 I hope you expect compensation. In #4 you better expect compensation. So you’re a PI in Ohio and you need a license, right? Well, let’s do a little more research.
My Opinion of the Ohio PI Licensing Regulations: Part 5 – Back to Examples 2-4
The code defines employees! 4749.01(I): "Employee" means every person who may be required or directed by any employer, in consideration of direct or indirect gain or profit, to engage in any employment, or to go, or work, or be at any time in any place of employment, provided that the employer of the employee deducts all applicable state and federal employment taxes on behalf of the employee.
In Example 2 you are an employee. Division (B) contains the language “the conducting, for hire, in person or through a partner or employees . . .” So, the licensed firm conducts, for compensation, PI work, through you, as an employee. (In case you haven’t noticed, I’m an artist with commas. Annoying, ain’t it?) Done! Your covered by the regs and don’t need a license. You can do whatever area of PI work your employer assigns you since they are the party with the license, the firm is for hire, and you work as an employee through their license. Example 2 is a good deal. Open another brew. (There are some employee registration requirements I won’t get into here, but for now just remember I noted this.)
Let’s increase the comfort level on this one, and look at a notation in OAC 1301:4-5. (Gotta tell you something here – you won’t find this notation in the stuff posted at the OH Homeland Security PI page, you have to go to the “officially” published code.) This is what it says after Section 08, Required Experience: “1. (1994) The licensing scheme under RC Chapter 4749 requires only the head of the business to be licensed. The licensee’s employees need only register with the department of commerce.” This is what I like to call a regulatory gem – lays it out in plain language!
Example 3 complicates the issue by making you an independent contractor. My answer is: So what? It actually makes the issue less complicated! Let’s read it again: “the conducting, for hire, in person or through a partner or employees . . .” Doesn’t say independent contractors. Remember what I said so long ago - if you don’t meet the definitions, you are outside the regulatory jurisdiction, and you are free to pursue your dreams. Not defined, not regulated, go to work and when you’re done – that’s right – get your remuneration and break into one more brew. Good for the licensed PI firm, too, they don’t have to register you!
By now you should see without further discussion that Example 4 will land you in court, when (not IF) you get turned into the OH Division of Homeland Security, where Licensed PI’s are now regulated. No more brew for you, at least until you make parole . . .