Alleged Stalker turns out to be Private Investigator

[Robert Donovan]

Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:

Father Fires Shots In Air To Scare Man:

Police said reports of shots fired last Friday turned out to be a father firing a gun into the air to scare off what he believed was a man stalking his daughter, the Fergus Falls Daily Journal reported.

Authorities said the alleged stalker was actually a private investigator hired for a worker's compensation investigation, the newspaper reported.

[Kathleen Padgett]

Wow, great topic. I think this would serve as a warning and reminder to all of us to be prepared, informed of the risks and cautious/alert at all times. I'm sure that it would apply to a number of other types of assignments in addition to insurance investigations. Thanks for sharing that story.

[William Brassfield]

Just when you thought only the repo man gets shot at.

[Don Menard]

Will,

Funny! :)

This is a great reminder for all. No matter what the job there still is a possibility of trouble.

[Sara E Pickett]

I agree with Kathleen.
What a great story we should all relate to Robert.
This is a good reference for the very near future as we trainees venture out into the PI's working world. Self defence and other related classes are becoming more likely for this PI trainee.
Thanks for the eye opener Robert. :)

[Michele Maconship]

I think this point has brought home to all trainees the necessity of being alert and aware of the potential dangers involved in each and every assignment. Honestly, I never would have thought of a routine work comp surveillance as having any danger at all associated with it. I will learn to keep my eyes and ears open from now on!

Thanks again for the great tip, and may you all have a blessed day.

[May K. Toney]

Thanks for the story, Robert. It was informative and a bit unsettling.

I've worked in the insurance arena for several years and have used outside PI's quite frequently. They are highly skilled and truly know their stuff. Of all the cases referred to select vendors in 20 years, I can only recall two instances where the PIs blew their cover (and my case). One was because the PI posed as a city official which, I understand, is a no no anyway. The other was because the subject was an ex FBI agent and police officer who knew exactly what to expect.

Besides the obvious safety issues, the most disturbing aspect of this story is that the PI was totally oblivious to the fact that he or she was detected ...more than once (i.e.; "stalker"). Equally hard to believe is the PI never knew, noticed or even suspected that something was amiss. In my mind, that significantly increased the risk of exposure and/or bodily harm.

I've sat through many presentations given by PI vendors and the one thing that's always emphasized is their need for detailed information about the subject, his or her residential area and their behavior patterns. Any sudden or significant change in the subject's behavior or patterns suggests that they expect the surveillance, received a tip and/or detected the PI. In such a case, the PI was to either switch to an accomplice or terminate the activity.

It seems that one or more safety precautions were breached here. The story is an excellent example of what can happen when you do.

[Kathleen Padgett]

The above story is an excellent one. Thanks for sharing your experiences, really good information to keep in mind as we are in training.

Kathie

[RoseAnn Weingart]

Thanks for the story. As a trainee, this will be invaluable information.
:)

[Mr Jose Bonavich Jr]

Robert,

I think I may want to spend some time practicing survellience before I actually try it in real life :) . Getting shot at, is not on my agenda :D

[Robert Smith -]

Great, quick article. Though you can gather that there really is no such thing as a safe job these days. Anyone can become a target.

[Bryan McManis]

What I find scary about this story is that you have to be aware of your situation. Especially if you are a male following a female. This points out the need and use of Females in the field. A female following a female would not raise fears first rattle out of the box.

A male in society is viewed with suspicion in almost every situation. A female is not viewed as a threat 99% of the time. If you are a male, you are being stupid to think you are invisible. Reactions of people in the field will tell you how well you are remaining invisible as far as being "burned" If you are burned it would be foolish to think you are invisible when you have gone to the other end of the spectrum and now are a "threat".

In addition, another thought is with out all the facts how do you react to a real act of violence in the field. The person firing a shot into the air is illegal period. You have to assume that if this person was" viewed" as a" stalker" there was more than one act that led up to this event. The person who was doing the shooting should have dialed 911 and had the police challenge this person.

Then you get into the area of carrying a firearm. I do carry a concealed firearm and I have a license to do so. I hope I never find myself in a shoot out because one PI is reckless and the other person is taking the law into his own hands. Surveillance is not as easy as it sounds. I have done foot and vehicle surveillance with a Female and we are always a couple when doing this type of activity. A couple is not perceived as a threat very quickly and it gives you the advantages of two heads are better then one.

[Michele Maconship]

I agree with you, Bryan, in that there seems to be a great advantage to having a male-female investigative team. Many activities, such as telephone pretext and surveillance can be performed by a female without arousing as much suspicion as a male would. And a couple performing a foot surveillance would have an advantage over a single investigator in that "four" eyes are better than two.

[Mr Jose Bonavich Jr]

Hey everyone,

Here's an interesting story.

A friend and I were in Germany, Munich to be precise at the Oktoberfest. It was late in the evening and we were walking out to the fairgrounds where all the beer tents had been set up. We noticed a young man following us, so we crossed the street and started "window shopping" ...we noticed that he crossed the street also and seemed to have a few friends with him...Well we decided to make sure he saw us looking at him and then crossed the street a second time....He backed off but kept following us from the other side of the street. Being in a foreign country and not speaking the language we decided the best thing to do would be to find a public place or a police officer. As luck would have it, we saw an office on the next block so we approached him and asked if he spoke English, he did but not much. We indicated the young man and his friends had been following us, as soon as they saw the officer they disappeared into the alleys and we didn't see them again.

I suppose we were instantly recognized as tourists, probably even Americans and unfortunately Americans are considered prime targets for robbery in some European countries.

It was only because we both have a tendency to be "suspicious" of those around us that we even noticed the young man and his friends. Hopefully that trait will make me a better investigator :D

We probably wouldn't have been so suspicious if the young man and his friends had females with them. Would have just considered them "young couples" out for an evening on the town.

[Byron Burke II]

This is an excellent example of keeping your head on a swivel, being aware of whats going on around you, and expect the worst out of people.

[Michael Harris]

Thanks,

We need this kind of story every so often to keep us focused on potential dangers. We have so excited about helping people that we may have overlooked some of the dangers.

[Andre Scott]

Im glad I know that things do happen. I feel that in this profession you must allways be on top of your game.. This is a field where saftey and security are # 1..

[Amanda Monroe]

This is a great reminder for all. No matter what the job there still is a possibility of trouble

I think this said it all!

[Brenda Muller]

Robert, Thank you for sharing the Story, It will be a big help in our training and makes us more aware of what is around us.
I watch people all the time and I'm a pretty good judge of character and can hardly wait to learn more from our training.
Good evening to all
Brenda :)

[Karen Kiely]

The lesson of this story is that the investigator "BLEW HIS COVER". This story is a great lesson for us new trainees. Don't Blow your Cover! We can all be as careful as possible, but if we blow our cover, it is all for naught!




Karen Kiely

New Hampshire

[Franchesca Mares]

You have to assume that if this person was" viewed" as a" stalker" there was more than one act that led up to this event.

EXACTLY.. I agree with that.


Franchesca Mares:)

[Ken Rohrer]

Originally posted by Robert Donovan
Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:
<blockquote>From what I've been reading about fraud surveillance, if that PI had done his job by the book and law, he wouldn't have been shot at. The law says that a PI can only record what he/she sees from a public location. Wandering around a home or neighborhood or looking in someone's back yard doesn't qualify as a public location.<P>Can anyone with experience concur?</blockquote>

[Bryan McManis]

Originally posted by Ken Rohrer
<blockquote>From what I've been reading about fraud surveillance, if that PI had done his job by the book and law, he wouldn't have been shot at. The law says that a PI can only record what he/she sees from a public location. Wandering around a home or neighborhood or looking in someone's back yard doesn't qualify as a public location.<P>Can anyone with experience concur?</blockquote>

Greetings Ken,

There is nothing to concur on in this example per say. The only fact from the information given is that of being shot at. The person who fired his weapon in the air was ILLEGALLY WRONG PERIOD. It is never justified to discharge a firearm into the air in any state EVER. If you clear leather you had better be willing and able to take a human life or don’t ever take it out. You should be hitting your target with extreme prejudice or don’t fire at all. For every time you miss your target you should be apologizing for not being good enough to carry a weapon. If the person does not die you should apologize because there is never a JUSTIFIABLE reason to JUST WOUND a person. There is no gray area. If they do not NEED to be DEAD then you should not be shooting at all ever.

Using a firearm is like a nuclear weapon. It has very long term lasting effects and consequences. The person in that case felt threatened. His life was not in danger and he had 911 to take care of that situation. He never called 911. He took matters into his own hands. The point of the story is that when you are doing your job correctly you are invisible. If you get burned end what you are doing. The fact that this person was viewed as a stalker meant that they were visible more then one time. And to make matters worse they were visible to the point of being perceived as a threat. That is a major failure. Do not find yourself going from invisible to a perceived threat.

In closing, part of being a professional is reading and knowing the laws that pertain to the task you are doing. There are laws for all the types of investigations that you will do. Each area of PI work is not new. It has been done for many years is down to a science and been contested in courts of law. Being a PI is now PROFESSION just like too many to list in our free market system. As with any profession comes an expected level of proficiency. Any behavior below that established level would be considered unprofessional. I hope this sheds some light on this for you and anyone else interested in this field of work.

Sincerely,

[Ken Rohrer]

Originally posted by Bryan McManis


Greetings Ken,

There is nothing to concur on in this example per say. The only fact from the information given is that of being shot at. The person who fired his weapon in the air was ILLEGALLY WRONG PERIOD...<blockquote>There's nothing like someone with experience shedding some light on the subject. You explain it well. I am also curious as to whom the PI was surveilling- a neighbor, the man's daughter, who? One of the books I recently read told of an experienced PI who stripped out the inside of a full-sized van and put in surveillance equipment- including a port-o-potty. There was a camera mounted to look out the front of the vehicle while the back behind the drivers seat was concealed by a curtain. No one would see anyone in the van. I guess that truly makes one invisible.</blockquote>

[Bryan McManis]

Originally posted by Ken Rohrer
<blockquote>There's nothing like someone with experience shedding some light on the subject. You explain it well. I am also curious as to whom the PI was surveilling- a neighbor, the man's daughter, who? One of the books I recently read told of an experienced PI who stripped out the inside of a full-sized van and put in surveillance equipment- including a port-o-potty. There was a camera mounted to look out the front of the vehicle while the back behind the drivers seat was concealed by a curtain. No one would see anyone in the van. I guess that truly makes one invisible.</blockquote>

Greetings Ken,

Thank you for the kind words. The person was doing surveillance on a female and the shooter was the father. You would be very wise to learn all you can about surveillance before attempting to do it in any serious fashion. There is nothing glamour’s about surveillance it is hard work. There is preplanning and many other things before you ever start. The numbers of methods are too numerous to list here. The good news is that many methods are well proven to work. What was done to that van was just the tip of the ice burg so to speak.

I am of the opinion that you earn every penny you get if you are a true professional at surveillance work. It is one of the harder things to do in this business and be a proven professional at it.

In closing, there are whole books on just this subject. I wish you all the best as you pursue your goals here in the forums.

Take care,

[Neal Naughton -]

Early one morning, while driving to work two jerks in a red car passed me and slowed down. So I pass them. Same thing happened again. This is about 4:50AM. They play this game down Mayfield Road hill thru the green light at the bottom and up the other side. The game stopped when we reached the red light on SOM Center Road. I got out of my car and was about half way to theirs when they got out. The passenger had a revolver in his hand pointed at me.

Oh (censored), I thought. The was nowhere to run, because the parking lots on both sides of the street were empty at that hour.
The thing that save me was that the driver was sober enough to tell the passinger to put that thing away and get back inside, which he did. The driver then threw a pop bottle at me and jumped back in his car and took off.

I should have got the license plate number, but didn't. I never reported this to the police, because without that number they couldn't do anything. _NFN

[Tina M Phillips]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Neal Naughton


Neal,

I hope I understand correctly that you got out of your car after a couple of attempts to 'pass/stare you down' type of game occurred?

I am happy for your safety because it is not good to get out of your car no matter how tempting or angry we are. I have seen some bad situations happen.

I hope I read your post correctly and I am not trying to judge. Just glad you got out of that one.

Tina Phillips

[James L Parmenter -]

I agree with Brian McManis....using the correct gender to act on surveilance jobs, in this case of Workmans Comp, it would be more fesible to have a woman in the PI's poisition thus raising less suspicions of the individual and the family. Appearantly the PI didnt practice good techniques, got too close, and alerted the father. If one gives off the impression as being a stalker he's likely to run into more than just being shot at, which in this case was only a warning. We need to be alert and very aware of our surroundings, someone may be watching us.....be careful out there you guy's its a crazy world we live..............

[Jerry Woytas]

Make sure you're prepared when working insurance cases:
____________________________________________________
I could not agree more here. New to all this, I was wondering about either a man or woman being mistaken for a stalker. Got my answer.

Thanks to everyone for their comments and replies. Very interesting!

JeryLyn

[Michael J Johnson -]

Robert, could you provide the link to this article, please?

[Christopher Hennessey]

Interesting Stories. Very Informative. I always thought that surviellance would be tough to do. Now, reading these, I know that is the case. And I agree with everyone that this guy obviously did something wrong several times to be perceived as a stalker.
A good lesson to be learned is to always be aware of your surroundings and was mentioned, it is definitely a good idea to know as much as you can about the subject you are survielling (is that a word? :) )

Lots of great info in these forums!

[Michael J Johnson -]

Early one morning, while driving to work two jerks in a red car passed me and slowed down. So I pass them. Same thing happened again. This is about 4:50AM. They play this game down Mayfield Road hill thru the green light at the bottom and up the other side. The game stopped when we reached the red light on SOM Center Road. I got out of my car and was about half way to theirs when they got out. The passenger had a revolver in his hand pointed at me.

Oh (censored), I thought. The was nowhere to run, because the parking lots on both sides of the street were empty at that hour.
The thing that save me was that the driver was sober enough to tell the passinger to put that thing away and get back inside, which he did. The driver then threw a pop bottle at me and jumped back in his car and took off.

I should have got the license plate number, but didn't. I never reported this to the police, because without that number they couldn't do anything. _NFN

Let me preface this with the fact that I've taught self-defense in some form for many years. The biggest portion of what I teach (95%) is avoidance and de-escalation. I also hang with police, military, ex-military, ex-streetfighters, and other SD instructors both in person and on an exclusive internet forum. Everyone of them would say the same thing:

Do not get in a (censored) match with fools like those in that car. The potential for meeting your Maker by playing that game is so high, it'll take a miracle for you to survive.

You've had your miracle, Neal. Don't expect to ever have another one like that.

My suggestion for such incidents - leave the area. Find another street to go down. Or make a U turn and go the other way. Or go to an area populated by heavy traffic. Go to a police station. Anything but play chicken with some fools in a car. And please don't ever get out of the car unless you're running into a police station!! Which brings me to my final bit of advice which I got from an Aikido player many years ago:

Run toward safety, not away from danger.

We want you around for a long time, Neal. ;)

BTW, if anyone wants to find out more about self-defense from someone who's been there, check out my friends' website:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/self-defensetraining.htm

[Christopher Hennessey]

Michael,

I totally agree and you said what I was thinking when I read that post! I too have taught self defense for a LONG time and teach the same thing. Neal was VERY lucky to have gotten away unharmed. My advice would be keep your mouth shut, ignore it, and like you said, get out of there. In the words of Mr. Miagi: the best way to block a 'punch' is not be there.

[Carl House]

I think it is always best to prepared for anything. Maybe better planning by the investigator would have been helpful in preventing this from happening. I also agree that a woman would have been better for the job.

Carl House

[Melanie Adams]

I agree with you Michael. Neal definitley recieved his miracle on that one! The first thing I was taught on surveillance regarding confrontation of any kind......don't let it happen.

[Tomas Clark]

Have you ever taken a close look at Stalker laws from state to state?

[Patrice-Maria Love]

It is always important to follow policies and procedures for law enforcement to reinforce safety and security. We cannot afford to blow our cover because it
may cost our lives.

[Melvin Smith]

Interesting article. I have had some bad experiences as a process server also involving guns. It's good to get these timely reminders to help keep us on our toes. One never can be too careful these days. Preparation is important, if we know these types of things can happen we can be better equiped to deal with them.

[Jacqueline Simak]

Great stories! Great advice!

Women are told (constantly) to be aware of their surroundings for their own safety. That habit should be very helpful for female PIs. And males need to learn to think like females when following one, although the last place I would go if I thought I was being followed is home

A few years ago friend of mine was teaching a guitar class at a local college. After class he and a female student were going out for coffee. He followed her car out of the parking lot...and to make a long story short, after a while she was making turns without signaling and finally heading back onto a main road. At a red light he pulled up next to her, looked over, and she wasn't the woman from his class. John didn't just let it go though. He got out of the car and walked over...to tell of his mistake. Needless to say, she tore through that red light and didn't look back. :eek:

He was harmless but you never know. Just like you never know who might try to hurt you because they don't have any stamp across their foreheads. It's futile to walk around terrified, so we just have to be aware and careful.

Jackie

[Randy Barnes]

I agree with some of the other responces and have to totally agree you must get all the information you can on the target and always be aware of whats going on around. You never know who's around and what theire intentions might be. This should be a good lesson for the trainee as well as the investigtor who has been around for awhile. Never drop your gaurd and never treat it as just another routine assignment. Good luck to all, be safe out there.

[Dabra J Grant -]

Minnesota Monday, May 12, 2003

Gun shots came from confused father
By Jim Sturgeon

A report of a gun shot fired during a disturbance Friday afternoon turned out to be a shot into the air, not aimed at anyone, said Otter Tail County Sheriff Brian Schlueter.
The gun was fired by the father of a woman who believed she was being stalked. It turns out a private investigator, apparently working on a worker's compensation investigation, was the one who was following the woman and watching her house southwest of Orwell Lake, Schlueter said.

The woman called her father, who came up behind the private investigator as the he was following his daughter's car. The father followed the investigator until he pulled over, and as the father approached the investigator's car, the investigator took off. The father yelled at him to stop and fired a gun into the air.
No one was injured in the incident.

Here is the entire news article as it appeared on May 12, 2003, including a typo, which is indicative of a small town newspaper and community mindset. After I read through this thread topic, I had several questions. I wanted more information, so I did some research, including accessing this article.

In an effort to get an overall picture of the community, and the lay of the land; I gathered information from the Chamber of Commerce, and then also figured I use Terafly, another wonderfull investigative tool I received by reading through a variety of forums.

To my dismay I had problems with it (Terafly), and will address those problems, but in the meantime I got a good idea of the lay of the land of this community by just researching the towns Chamber of Commerce listings, and by viewing some of the homes listed with Century 21, amongst other things.

My conclusions, are that this is a very small tight knit community, and especially the area referred to in the article. This puts in perspective the reaction of the father, although by no means justifies his dislodging a firearm, even if just into the air, however this is not unusual behavior in this type of setting, and under the circumstances. If you have ever lived in a rural area you know what I say is true.

Put in perspective however, and being a protective father, I can somewhat understand his reaction. Remember he thought his daughter was being stalked, and wanted to send a strong & clear message that couln't be ignored by the man perceived as a danger to his daughter.

Yelling at the suspected stalker I'll call 911, would not be much of a deterrent, whereas firing a shot certainly gives a pretty undeniable message. I could not view the actual location without spending much more time than I want to at this gesture. I can well imagine that the location is quite unpopulated, due to my prior reasearch. For one thing, a town with only two funeral homes is quite small.

The reaction of law enforcement also seems to concur that no laws were actually broken, and that it was simply referred to as an incident.

For me it puts everything into a different light when I consider all the various details involved. I believe that this insurance company investigator was unprofessional, sloppy, and unprepared by not doing his homework in the first place.

Haste makes Waste. I venture a guess that this individual was not, or is not a member of IPIU either. We can here at IPIU can go into this profession with our eyes wide open, and are given every available tool to learn how to investigate before the actual surveillance, and to cover all our bases.

That angry father may have done that investigator a bigger favor than one might think. We must always think 5 steps ahead before we act, as being discovered puts the entire profession into an unfavorable light, and can put an investigator and or agency out of business.

In this information age, with everything available at our fingertips through the internet, there really is no excuse to not be thorough. Do your homework, ahead of time and be careful out there.

[Jacqueline Simak]

Hey Dabra:

Great investigative work. As a mother, I would kill or die for either of my children, as would my husband, their father. So I understand the father's actions if I don't condone them, because what goes up must come down. Besides that bullet could have gone as far as 18 football fields and still had the power to kill someone. But that's neither here nor there. Your investigation was terrific.

Jackie

[Vincent Matozzo]

Great Article,
These are the kinds of situations that we all need to be cautious of.....

:cool:

[Yvonne Oliver -]

Great story. Funny but informative. I liked it :) I know that there are risked going into any job and now I'll know to keep my eyes and ears open if only for a routine surveillance job :D Thanks for the info.

[Paul Franco]

Great story.

[Victoria S Kinney]

Thank you Robert for the great story, kind of wants you to stop and think and observe everything around you. :cool:

[Prem Prasad]

Be Prepared

I 100% agree with Robert Donovan. It is a great lesson for us.

[Patti Schubert -]

:)

What a great reminder, you can never be too careful with anything your doing.

:rolleyes:

Patti

[Pamela Duffey]

BTW, if anyone wants to find out more about self-defense from someone who's been there, check out my friends' website:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/self-defensetraining.htm

Thank you for sharing that website, Michael. After exploring it briefly I bookmarked it for further reading. I especially was interested in the info on conflict avoidance and escalation of violence. Interesting stuff. I plan on returning to the site to cull through and make notes so I can print up a little "guideline" to pass on to my kids.

Pam

[Jessica Rose O'Bryan -]

There are two things to consider here:
One is that a private investigator's life is in danger on certain cases such as this...leading to the question: should we carry a firearm?? I believe that this depends upon the case and what activities (such as surveillance) are involved.
The other is that perhaps a female investigator would have been a better choice here, considering the person being followed was a female. Then if the investigator was ever suspected of following the subject they would not have been viewed as a threat (at least not as much as a male would have been).

[Katrina Burton Todd]

Thanks Robert for posting this article. It's a reminder of how dangerous it is out their and we need to be alert and aware at all times.

Katrina

[Todd Heddleson]

Just when you thought only the repo man gets shot at.

I understand your point, but, i'm sorry this was just in poor taste. :(

[Todd Heddleson]

as I said before keep space bettween you and the person you are watching. ;)

[Todd Heddleson]

Will,

Funny! :)

This is a great reminder for all. No matter what the job there still is a possibility of trouble.


as a ex cop I don't see the humor in this. we don't need another brother shot!! :mad:

[Joseph Anthony Russo]

Great topic for a forum. Did the case go to court or was it all for nothing? I would hope all of his ability to remain unnoticed would count for something.

[Michele R. Schibi--]

In school to learn & practice our surveillance techniques one training method used was to go to a mall, pick out a subject & follow them thru-out their shopping excursion noting times, places they went, Etc. We were to follow them until they went to their car & got there license plate number. Than you would go to a different mall & start all over again. That was just one of our training exercises. It was really helpful. I just wanted to share that. Michele

[Harrison Cowan]

This is another great post that should be used as a preparation tool for those of us trying to break into the business. I've been paying close attention to posts like these and making notes accordingly. I know I will not be prepared for everything that may come my way, but learning from what other people have done, is helping pave the way for me. Thanks for the post.
Harrison
Badge#10733

[Ed Dufresne -]

Consider notifying local authorities in advance when conducting surveillance, to avoid embarassing, cover blowing situations.....Telephoto lenses work great also when trying to keep distance between the tail and target, and often eliminate the chance of a bullet

Ed Dufresne

[Justin Wheatley]

THis post is great for experience. A PI must be on his/her toes at all times. Not only do you have to have the ability to trail somebody and not be seen, you must use your own senses to realize if somebody is aware of you. This goes to show how dangerous people can be if they beleive they are in danger themselves.

JW

[Scott Bole]

Keep an eye out for a situation thats turning bad...so you have time to walk away. If its too late for that...run! Its a lot funner to go to someone elses trial than your own. Explaining self defense is never a good time and can always go wrong. You never know...

[Richard Moschetti Jr]

I've done surveillance on workers comp. cases. Most investigation agencies forbid their investigators from carrying a firearm for insurance purposes. They don't want to pay for the higher premium to have armed investigators. They expect you to flee the scene if confronted by someone armed. Last time I checked I wasn't superman. No'one can outrun a bullet.

[Michael Harris]

Richard,

If the insurance companies do not want armed investigators, it might be time to invest in top-of-the-line body armor.

[Anne Friedland -]

I had a scary similar experience about 10 years ago. I was on a Repo Mission at a Cleveland laundromat. When we took this guys Cadillac, he freaked pulled a gun and wildly started firing. I got grazed in my left arm I went to the Hospital and they packed it and said it would heal. i went to Florida and it was infected!!! I almost lost my arm.
The moral: BE REALLY AWARE OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS!:cool:

[Michael Harris]

Anne,

I see two morals:

Be very aware of your surroundings
Find a decent hospital

We are glad that you survived and are here with us.

[Marcus Fletcher]

Thanks for the info.