Interpol Publishes CD for Private Investigators: Art Rewards

[Sara Livingston]

Interpol also publishes a CD-ROM for the private sector, prints posters of the "most wanted" stolen treasures and lists recent thefts on its Internet site.

PARIS - Art experts, curators and law enforcement officials gathered at Interpol headquarters Monday to create a computerized list to help customs agents catch any looted Iraqi treasures that pass through their borders.

Compiling an easily accessible description of looted antiquities was at the top of the agenda for the two-day meeting in the southeastern city of Lyon.

But tracking down stolen Iraqi art won't be easy. Museum inventories, which may have been incomplete to start with, were destroyed or scattered in pillaging during the chaotic aftermath of the U.S.-led invasion. Thousands of pieces of art — some of them priceless antiquities — are believed missing, but so far there is no agreement on even how much art was taken.

The conference brings together experts from the International Council of Museums, UNESCO (news - web sites) — the U.N. heritage agency — and other officials, including U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites), who will speak to the meeting on Tuesday.

Interpol said that one key proposal was "to significantly expand Interpol's existing database of stolen art to include the thousands of other items now missing in Iraq (news - web sites)."

Iraq's museums held millennia-old artworks from the Assyrian, Sumerian and Babylonian cultures. Ancient Mesopotamia — modern-day Iraq — was the cradle of urban civilization.

Figuring out what is missing has been a central task of investigators.

"We don't yet have a complete record of all the stolen objects, and we don't have any means to verify that a certain object is indeed coming from that collection," said Giovanni Boccardi with UNESCO's World Heritage Center in Paris.

UNESCO also hopes to send a fact-finding mission to Iraq to help piece together inventories and more fully assess the damage.

Interpol, the international police organization, already has a database of 21,000 other stolen artworks that includes photographs and descriptions. Interpol's 181 member countries have quick access to that information through a computer program.

Interpol also publishes a CD-ROM for the private sector, prints posters of the "most wanted" stolen treasures and lists recent thefts on its Internet site.

The United States, whose military has been widely criticized for doing nothing to stop the pillaging, is also moving to recover the missing art. The FBI (news - web sites) is coordinating efforts with international law enforcement, and the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq has begun broadcasting messages on the radio offering rewards to Iraqis to return antiquities.

At a conference in London last week, the world's top curators pressed U.S. authorities to go further by tightening up Iraq's borders, saying artifacts were still being smuggled out of the country.

Many artworks are believed to have disappeared into a shadowy and profitable network of traffickers and their customers. Koichiro Matsuura, UNESCO director-general, says the world market in stolen antiquities amounts to $5 billion a year, second only to drugs.

___


On the Net:

http://www.interpol.int

[Hugh H Wilder -]

Sara this is great! I have added the interpol link to my other art securities links. I have a big interest in art and lots of experience in insurance. If more people knew how many great pieces of great art were missing, more would be willing to hunt. Reward money averaging 10% of millions- is not bad pay either!
Thanks! :)

[Robert Smith -]

This is a great site. I too am into art but I had no idea that there was a great deal of art missing in the world. Very interesting, I may check on this side of investigation for my love of art and also the reward of helping return it to where it belongs.

[Mr Jose Bonavich Jr]

Sara,

Thanks for the article and link :) . I actually was an Art Major in college, and recently someone suggeted that I might be interested in Art Forgery/Theft. This info has certainly given me something to think about :D

[Kathleen Padgett]

It's good to know there are sites where stolen art can be listed and reported. It must improve the chances of their recovery greatly.

[Byron Burke II]

These objects could be very interesting to track down, because of the locations you would get to see, but these objects are very diffucult to track down. According to a history channel special there is something like a million art objests still missing from WW II and these objests are well documented. Yet it would be a good excuse to tell the wife we have to go to Europe for a case.

[Michael Harris]

Interesting issue -- stolen art has always been a problem. I would normally insert a reference to a crime novel here, but I cannot remember the author or titles at this time.

As I have mentioned before, sometimes you can learn much from well-researched novels.

My dealings with Customs has been related to Export Control under the International Traffic in Arms Regulation (ITAR). I used to be involved with export control for a spacecraft manufacturer. I learned a lot about law in general on that assignment. My copy of the ITAR was marked up and tabbed to find all the good parts. :cool:

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Michael Harris]

Barbara,

I could not watch the older version after seeing the Pierce Brosnan / Rene Russo version. The original was good, but there was chemistry in the remake (than and Rene Russo).

I read at least 100 books a year, and lately it has been between 150 and 200. I forget my references every once in a while. I am still trying to remember the reference for the art theft. All I remember is the art stolen by the Nazis, and now someone is faking their provenance.

I know many writers who tell the reader in the forward what is real and what is not. :D

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Michael Harris]

Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman
In addition to everything else I do, I'm getting a PhD from Columbia. If you ever forget a reference over there, they slap your knuckles (ok, only figuratively. but it still hurts :( )
...
Now, your ref to Nazi art - that's not from the movie, is it?
...
Barbara,

My PhD was easy, but my DBA was a [explitive deleted by author]. I read 150+ books the year I finished my disertation. I remembered everything then.

The Nazi art was from a novel. I remember that Mystery.Net offered the first chapter of a new novel each month. I bought only a few of the books, but this was one of the first. The year must have been between 1998 and 2000 - I remember where I was working when I read the book. I may be forced to chase down the title.

[Michael Harris]

Web Site to Help Find Art Stolen by Nazis
Sun Sep 7, 11:42 AM

By CARL HARTMAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - People searching for art that was stolen by the Nazis have a new tool: a Web site that allows U.S. museum collections to be checked for long-lost pieces.

The Nazi-Era Provenance Internet Portal _ http://www.nepip.org _ is a searchable registry for people looking for items that disappeared in Europe between 1932 and 1946. It goes online Monday.

So far 66 museums have signed up to participate in the program overseen by the American Association of Museums. They include the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and the Chicago Institute of Art. The Web site has indexed 5,761 of their objects and an additional 1,663 are in process.

Similar sites in Europe will be reachable through a link with the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington.

The Nazis and their allies may have stolen as many as 1.5 million objects by the end of World War II.

Estimates of the number still missing run as high as 100,000 works of museum quality. Some have found their way to the United States.

The association's president, Edward H. Able Jr., counted 17 claims settled for paintings, sculptures, textiles and pieces of armor found in American museums since 1997. Among them are a pastel by Edgar Degas, the French Impressionist painter, that had been bought by a trustee for the Art Institute of Chicago, and a painting by Henri Matisse that had been at the Seattle Art Museum.

The Nazis not only confiscated property but also forced dealers and agents to sell, at artificially low prices, art owned by Jews and the Nazis' political enemies. Confiscations and forced sales included books, religious objects, stamp and coin collections, furniture and other antiques and rarities.

Able said for that reason the Web site initiative includes more than just art museums. "We have museums of all kinds _ an item could have seeped into a history museum, for example," he said.

U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: http://www.ushmm.org
American Association of Museums: http://www.aam-us.org

Copyright 2003 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[Melinda Cole]

Thanks for that post! What a shame - I doubt that even half will ever be recovered! :mad: Art and antiquities are so important to our history. I have always known about the Nazi thefts, but I was not aware of the extent until I read your post.

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

There are tow kinds of stolen art. The kind that is still available, e.g., ancient Egyptian art that is in the British Museum. And the kind that will never be found.

So much will ever be seen again. :(

[Melinda Cole]

Interesting perspective, Michael! I've never quite looked at it that way before! How True!

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

The great British archaeologists and Egyptologists were art thieves and grave robbers. They did not mean to be grave robbers and art thieves, but the Egyptians of the time were not up to the task of protecting a heritage that we all share.

[Melinda Cole]

Michael,

That's food for thought. I believe the archeologists were mainly concerned with their conquests, but maybe I'm wrong. :rolleyes:
I do appreciate the great beauty of the Egyptian artifacts, as well as many others, (the discovery at Sutton Hoo being one), and the Scythian gold treasures. These are important discoveries, historically speaking, but still falls in the catagory of legal grave robbing

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

In the US, museums like the Smithsonian have been sued by Native American tribes for the recovery of their dead.

We have to balance the needs of legitimate research against the desires of those left behind.

If we, Western civilization, had not robbed graves, we would have no history. No one complains about the grave robbers who took the treasures and melted them down or cut the gems. The blame goes to those who tried to preserve the glories of the past.

[Melinda Cole]

Michael,

Yes, indeed. A year or two ago, I saw on I think the History Channel, "experts" trying to restore some Egyptian busts of an important nature. This inexperienced moron was pushing down really hard while trying to touch up the bust, and pieces were falling off of it each time she touched it. Did she stop, oh no! She just kept on and destroying it all along the way. What a total waste!
The narrator was commenting on that, as well, about how these precious artifacts are being destroyed by inexperienced people. They should just leave it be, for goodness sakes!!

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

Becoming a conservator of art works is a tough job. There are not enough trained people doing it becasue it is so hard.

To continue to damage irreplaceable art is a crime against humanity.

[Melinda Cole]

I agree- it was down right heartbreaking to see a treasure damaged the way it was! :(

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

When I was in college dating a young art major, I had ample opportunity to be in the studios. Many of the budding artists overworked their pieces. They needed someone with a large rubber mallet to stand next to them and knock them sensless when the piece was done.

There is something in a artist that wants to work the art to death. That may be the reason for not stopping when the first damage was done.

[Melinda Cole]

Yiikes, that reminds me (in a weird way) of hair sylists that love to try to cut my hair short just because it's real long. I think it's the thrill of having free reign over something. This may be a strange comparison, huh? But I hope you get what I mean!! :cool:

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

I know of several women who keep changing hair stylists in a desperate attempt to find one who will do as asked.

Even my daughter complains about that.

I keep my hair short and parted in the middle (3-4 inch wide part) so I do not have that problem.

[Melinda Cole]

3/4" eh? That's short! At least you don't have any worries about getting your hair too short!! I should unleash my hair stylist on you!!

[Michael Harris]

Melinda,

You missed the "dash". My part is between 3" and 4" wide.:o

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Ken Rohrer]

Originally posted by Sara Livingston
PARIS - Art experts, curators and law enforcement officials gathered at Interpol headquarters Monday to create a computerized list to help customs agents catch any looted Iraqi treasures that pass through their borders.

Compiling an easily accessible description of looted antiquities was at the top of the agenda for the two-day meeting in the southeastern city of Lyon.

But tracking down stolen Iraqi art won't be easy. Museum inventories, which may have been incomplete to start with, were destroyed or scattered in pillaging during the chaotic aftermath of the U.S.-led invasion. Thousands of pieces of art — some of them priceless antiquities — are believed missing, but so far there is no agreement on even how much art was taken...
<blockquote>That's great! I have an extensive art background and it never occured to me that private eyes can investigate art theft. It looks like the job would take you around the world. I wonder how one gets such a job and who hires them...

[Michael Harris]

Ken,

I do not remember if that was one of the 50+ disciplines within PI that were in the thread on the disciplines. At this point, most of us know so little about the tremendous possibilities that lie ahead. :cool:

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Stolen Art



"...Koichiro Matsuura, UNESCO director general, says the world market in stolen antiquities ammounts to $5 billion a year, second only to drugs" Originally posted by Sara Livingston



The topic caught my eye at the first visit at PI Forums. The competence and professionalism of Forum members commenting the topic impressed me very positively.
Since I am a 3-day old Forum member I am feeling being a little bit late at this round table. However, I would like to post a few comments and, at the same time, ask a question.

Indeed, stolen art is a big market. I am wandering how could we define “stolen art”?
Taking into consideration some quotations of comments posted earlier by my colleagues (“There are two kinds of stolen art. The kind that is still available, e.g., ancient Egyptian art that is in the British Museum…”- Mr. Michael Harris, Sept. 10, 2003; “If we, Western civilization, had no robbed graves, we would have no history…” – Mr. Michael Harris, Sept.11, 2003) one can see that there is no absolute truth, and the definition of “stolen art” is laid on a slippery ground.

First, let us not forget that the famous Louvre Museum also shelters a huge Egyptian collection of treasures, brought by Napoleon Bonaparte from his campaign in Egypt. At the Pergamon Museum in Berlin people can admire the splendor of Nefertiti, queen of Egypt and the altar of Pergam.

What about the stolen art by Nazis? In my opinion it is very different.

Finally, how could we consider the art bought by governments, museums and private persons? I pick up one particular example: the splendid Spanish monastery, built in 1160 (!), bought by Randolph Hearst in 1923, disassembled part by part, packed, shipped to the USA and assembled in Miami, in a large Spanish community area. I think this has nothing in common with stolen art.

I would consider “stolen art” the contemporary theft (originating from the end of 19th century, to the best of my knowledge) of art objects, like paintings, statues, ancient manuscripts, ancient weapons, cult objects, etc., etc.

Leaving this subject (which is far from being exhausted), I am returning to the topic, which is, at the same time, important, rewarding and…exotic. I totally agree with Ms. Barbara Holtzman comments (Sept.5, 2003) about the “Thomas Crowne Affair” (both movies) depicting our topic. I would like to mention that besides McQueen-Dunaway and Brosnan-Russo, there have been other famous couples playing similar roles: Peter O’Toole-Audrey Hepburn (How to Steal A Million), Clint Eastwood-G.Kennedy (The Eiger Sanctions) and, most recently, Sean Connery- Catherina- Zeta Jones (Entrapment). Also it is to mention that in real life Vladimir Putin, the Russian President, was assigned for years (when he was a KGB Sr.Officer) as an investigator for stolen art in Eastern Germany (according to a Russian press release commented in the US by San Jose Mercury News). The fact that so many celebrities were involved in this matter shows that the topic itself is really important.

And here is my question: I would like to know if this domain is accessible not only for officers but for soldiers too. More directly, is this domain included in the sphere of activities of IPIU? (Being a new Forum member I did not yet received the “Assignment Profile”). I would appreciate very much any answer from my colleagues.
Thank you.

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Michael Harris]

Dragos/Barabara,

I knew I had come to the right place. Your comments and insights are very helpful.

There is still that fuzzy middle ground - art (or better - antiquities) that would be lost to the world (including the ethnic, cultural, or national gorup to which the originators belonged) if it had not been stolen.

I have read recently of the various American Indian tribal organizations or nations that have tried to regain the remains and relics of their ancestors. How unfortunate it would be to lose that information. But how did the museums get the material in the first place - grave robbers (or archaeologists).

I am confused. I think that the easiest art to consider is that stolen in times of armed conflict during the last century. There is no doubt that it is stolen and not the result of archaeology in the attempt to preserve someone's cultural heritage.

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Michael Harris]

Barbara,

I may not have been clear in my comments. We are looking at the issue from similar points of view.

Those who stole artifacts from ancient civilizations saved those artifacts from total loss. Was that a crime then? Is it a crime now? I do not know. That is why I would never get involved in that kind of "art theft".

I woul, however, get involved in art theft by belligerents during the last century. That is clearly a criminal act. There is no middle ground.

My background in ethics is from the business point of view. I stay away from all other ethical messes.

There are enough bad guys out there for all of us.:cool:

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Michael Harris]

Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman
..."Business ethics" may be an oxymoron, most other ethics may simply be semantic, and philosophical ethics merely rhetoric. ...
Barbara,

I did graduate work in business ethics and have taught ethics for a major corporation. I have not found any big business that really practices it. :(

[Michael Harris]

Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman
... Take something that doesn't belong to you and try an ethical argument on either a cop or a judge. ...
Barbara,

There is a little test for whether an action is ethical. It is not foolproof, but the first three questions are:

[list=1]
Does it violate any law??
Does it violate any rule or regulation?
Does it violate any (corporate) policy?
[/list=1]
If you answer yes to any of these, you stop because the act is unethical. In passing, an act can be moral and unethical at the same time.

[Michael Harris]

Barbara,

Back to the topic of art theft. Those are great links. The first thing I noticed in the first one was the list of objects:

Artifacts
Books & Manuscripts
Musical Instruments
Fossils
Gems & Minerals

We do not always realize how broad the term art can be.

I assume that recovering stolen art is one of your future efforts. Thanks for the great links. I examined them all (I did only a cursory effort on the last one). Very helpful. I will have to study them in depth after my next quarter (criminal justice). :) :D :cool:

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Barbara,


When I started commenting the “stolen art”, the box of Pandora was already open. I wanted to make only a modest contribution, since the previous debate did not define the topic “en titre”. Your sharp reply challenges me to remain temporary in the field.

Since your definition for the word “stolen “ doesn’t have a source, I took the liberty to consult a dictionary: “steal”- to take the property of another without right or permission” (Houghton Mifflin, 3rd edition, 1992, pag.1758). The definition is slightly different. Although our topic is “Stolen Art”, which is quite different, let’s apply the short (“steal”) definition in the case of Egypt.

Any analysis in this respect should consider two aspects: the judicial factor and the moral one. According to the first criterion, the British administration (Egypt was a British colony) gave the right and permission to reputed archeologists (English, French, German, etc.) to to search, recover, and render valuable for mankind, some treasures of ancient Egypt. Michael Harris, wisely and clearly, explains the circumstances:

the Egyptians of the time were not up to take the task of protecting a heritage we all share" (Sept.10,2003)

Considering the moral factor I will argue by my belief that something what is necessary for the human spirit and brings satisfaction and happiness for large groups of people, that thing is moral. I anticipate your reply: “What about the Egyptians?” Well, they posses the most important heritage. The Westerners helped them to preserve it and obtain a huge economic benefit. Also, they have the pride and satisfaction that a part of their heritage brings light and happiness all over the world.

I would like to ask you some questions. You are free to decline answering but I hope you will remain in the arena.

First let’s remember Jean Francois Champollion, the French scientist who brought from Egypt a collection of ancient parchments and tablets. After many years of intensive studies he deciphered the hieroglyphics (1821) becoming the first person to read the writings of ancient Egypt. Could you name him a “thief” because of the “stolen” tablets? And what about other archeologists? Before having an answer, I will cite the elegant reference made by Michael Harris in this respect:

"The blame goes to those who tried to preserve the glories of the past" (Sept.11, 2003)

Here is the second question: How would you depict the efforts of Western countries and organizations (United Nations, UNESCO, etc.) in order to save the tallest statues of Budha, in Bamian?. The “two towers” were finally destroyed by Taliban artilery. Lost for the mankind. Are you comfortable to comment?

A third question, this time a chance to get closer to a possible (but improbable) definition of the topic. At the same time it could be sensitive since it concerns Germany. It was agreed before I became a Forum member that the art taken by Nazis is stolen art. No doubt. Just a specification: Not Nazi Germany. It was the Nazi government. But, what about the statue of Nefertiti and the altar of Pergamum? Both are sheltered at Pergamon Museum in Berlin. In no circumstances the name of Germany, the “Fatherland” of Beethoven, Goethe, and Rudolf Diesel could be associated to the word “theft”. Then, who is to be blamed? The archeologists, German administration, chancellor Bismark?
In my opinion - none of them. (Even expressing my belief, your answer would be welcomed).

Hoping the approach to an understanding I will review my idea (proposal for definition) of “stolen art” :

"...contemporary theft, originating from the end of 19 th century, of art objects...." (Sept.27, 2003)

I will also cite Michael Harris in this respect:

"...I would however get involved in art theft by belligerents during the last century. This is clearly a criminal act..." (Sept.29, 2003)

Barbara, you can see that the two versions are almost similar. I let you draw the conclusions.

I have no more questions, just a warning [sic]. You had opened a “box of Pandora” (Sept.5,2003) with your comments about “The Thomas Crowne Affair” I added some more couples art “collector” – stolen art investigator. Considering “the bad guys”- Steve McQueen, Audrey Hepburn, Pierce Brosnan, Clint Eastwood, Sean Connery, etc., if you would label them as “thieves and criminals”, beware a tremendous reaction from their fans and admirers. They are thousands. I know one of them.

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

I am impressed. You write as if you have been in the business - art creation, art resoration, art recovery, etc.

I would hate to see treasures lost because someone was afraid of being labeled a thief. The art of any peoples around the world is the art of all the peoples of the world. While we, in the US, may not share a great deal of culture with some of the ethnic and cultural groups in Asia, their cultural heritage has influenced ours in some measure.

The destruction of statues of Buddha is a crime against humanity. They symbolized the spiritual culture of a large portion of the world's population. Had the statues been removed and hidden, that would have been simple theft because the treasures could be recovered. To destroy them was evil.

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Barbara Holtzman]

:)

[Barbara Holtzman]

Originally posted by Michael Harris

Had the statues been removed and hidden, that would have been simple theft because the treasures could be recovered. To destroy them was evil.

From 1964 to 1968, the Temples of Abu Simbel were dismantled into 3000 blocks and moved to ground above the current Lake Nasser, above the Aswan Dam. It took 4 years for UNESCO to set up, and about 40 million 1968 dollars, a third from Egypt, a third from the US, and the rest wherever they could get it. It required cooperation that would never have come from the Taliban. I believe that was the only time such a thing has ever been attempted.

The destruction of the Bamian Buddhas is a crime against all of humanity, most especially the religion who did the destruction.

To read how Buddists feel about it, see this link

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/buddhism/64204

The destruction of the Buddhas is the least of the Taliban's crimes. I had written some of what they did, but that strays into the political, is necessarily gruesome, and so very off topic.

Until the US was attacked, the entire world stood silent to their many crimes.

May the Almighty One have mercy on all of His children.

And now I've strayed into religion, so I will really stop...

[Barbara Holtzman]

Originally posted by Dragos Sfinteanu
the British administration (Egypt was a British colony) gave the right and permission to reputed archeologists (English, French, German, etc.) to to search, recover, and render valuable for mankind, some treasures of ancient Egypt.

The Conquerors always feel entitled to spoils from the conquered, as well as the right to infantilize them. And to enslave them, often in support of their own plundering.



they have the pride and satisfaction that a part of their heritage brings light and happiness all over the world.

Or at best, in museums where people have to pay to see them. At worst, in private royal or government collections.


First let’s remember Jean Francois Champollion, the French scientist who brought from Egypt a collection of ancient parchments and tablets. After many years of intensive studies he deciphered the hieroglyphics (1821) becoming the first person to read the writings of ancient Egypt.

I'm sure the conditions in Egypt itself were quite inhumane to a Frenchman. Impossible for him to do the work in situ. But if he (actually the French government) had to take the Rosetta stone to Paris, couldn't they have brought it back?


Could you name him a “thief” because of the “stolen” tablets? And what about other archeologists?

I have friends who are archeologists, and yes, many of them ARE thieves, although quite petty ones. It was often expected that "archeologists," and I use the term guardedly as many of the early ones were little more than treasure hunters, to bring back something in exchange for the sizeable sums provided by their patrons for the effort.

It is a modern construct that one should not remove another's heritage, but study it in situ. Perhaps also a conceit; after all, who's to say it's the best way? It may only be the right way.


How would you depict the efforts of Western countries and organizations (United Nations, UNESCO, etc.) in order to save the tallest statues of Budha, in Bamian?.

Pathetic, as is much of what the UN does. See my post to Micahel Harris.


The “two towers” were finally destroyed by Taliban artilery. Lost for the mankind. Are you comfortable to comment?

I am going to assume you don't realize how incendiary your reference to the "two towers" as an analogy for the embedded bas relief Buddhas is, especially to a New Yorker. While the destruction of certain pieces of stone may well qualify as a terrorist act, and again see my comment to Michael, such a reference trivializes the horror set in motion by the singular event involving those other, more recognizable to most, "two towers."


the art taken by Nazis is stolen art. No doubt. Just a specification: Not Nazi Germany. It was the Nazi government.

The primary reason much of it is still missing is that it is in private collections, and not in the possession of the German government, Nazi or otherwise. Individual Germans (and Poles and Czechs and Austrians, among others) were provided with houses emptied of their legitimate inhabitants, many still live there, and still have the art, furniture, even dishes they got as "gifts."

So you're right, they weren't technically stolen. It only feels that way when it's your families' home, I guess.


But, what about the statue of Nefertiti and the altar of Pergamum? Both are sheltered at Pergamon Museum in Berlin. In no circumstances the name of Germany, the “Fatherland” of Beethoven, Goethe, and Rudolf Diesel could be associated to the word “theft”. Then, who is to be blamed?

As I mentioned, the conqueror always feels entitled, and if you're entitled, you hardly think of it as theft. How does the Egyptian Government feel about it? How about Egyptian-native Egyptian scholars?

The only conclusion I can come up with about you and another member of this forum stating similar definitions is just that - that you and he almost agree on what might be considered stolen art. That doesn't actually make it the definition, however.


Considering “the bad guys”- Steve McQueen, Audrey Hepburn, Pierce Brosnan, Clint Eastwood, Sean Connery, etc., if you would label them as “thieves and criminals”, beware a tremendous reaction from their fans and admirers. They are thousands. I know one of them.

Beware?

How odd it seems to me to confuse a real person with a role they may be portraying in a movie. Playing a thief doesn't make one a thief. (Clint Eastwood? When did he play a thief?)


I have no more questions, just a warning [sic].

I'm duly warned - well away from this topic and forum.

We're not really talking about stolen art investigations anyway.

[Ken Rohrer]

<blockquote>I wonder how much PIs have been called upon when famous art is defaced? They easily caught the person who took a hammer to the Pietá and broke off her nose and finger. But what about other art that has been spray painted or torn with a knife?<P>In 1981 I had the pleasure of going into the basement of a church in Florence, Italy and seeing "il grafitti di Michelangelo" (charcoal drawings by Michelangelo). A guard let me down there without anyone present. I could easily touch the art on the walls with no trouble. I thought how easy it would be for someone to deface the art or even innocently put their hands on the work.<P>Does anyone know the role that PIs have had (if any) with the defacing of art?</blockquote>

[Michael Harris]

Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman
As I said, the semantics and rhetoric of morality and ethics!!!
Barbara,

I was trying to stay with ethics. Morality has nothing to do with it. :o

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

Thank you for your comments and appreciation. It has a great value for me since it comes from a stylish professional, fine writer,
and a humanist - a man that I keep in high respect.

...The Chinese advanced a proposal to restore the two Buddhas in Bamian. The reputed Daniel Libeskind won the right to raise the new twin towers in New York. But all of them will never be like their ancestors...

Dragos

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Originally posted bt Barbara Holtzman .

I'am actually quite inspired by the Russo role in Crowne but I'am well aware that getting to that level isn't easy, and I've got a late start.

In my opinion it would be impossible, even with an earlier start

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Barbara,

I am responding to your comments of Sept.30, 2003


Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman

"I'am sure the conditions in Egypt itself were quite inhumane to a Frenchman. Impossible for him to do the work in situ...".

He was a scientist, Barbara. It is quite different. He dedicated all his life for the great discovery - deciphering the hieroglyphics. I am glad you avoided to name him a thief but the archeologists came again under your fire.


"I have friends who are archeologists, and yes, many of them ARE thieves..."

I am not commenting, just wondering if your friends know how do you label them....

Now, I will cite two of your comments concerning the same
subject, the first sent to Michael Harris and the second to me.
Please, review them:


Originally posted by Batbara Holtzman "The destruction of Bamian Buddhas is a crime against all of humanity..." (September 30, 2003, 4:08 P.M.)[/QUOTE

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman "I am going to assume you don't realize how incendiary your reference to the "two towers" as an analogy for the embedded bas relief Buddhas is, especially for a New-Yorker. While the destruction of certain pieces of stone may well qualify as a terrorist act, ... such a reference trivializes the horror set in motion by the singular event involving those other, more recognizable to most, "two towers"...." (September 30, 2003, 4:56 P.M.)

I certainly don't realize how "a crime against all the humanity" could transform itself in a "destruction of certain pieces of stone" in only 48 minutes. What is here obvious is the fact that your first comment labels the second one as "of little importance or
value " (I couldn't use your word).

I would like to cite the comment of Michael Harris in this respect:


Originally posted by Michael Harris.

"The destruction of statues of Buddha is a crime against humanity. They symbolized the spiritual culture of a large portion of the world's population..."

The analogy mentioned by you is appropriate in my opinion : both
subjects, Bamian Buddhas and "The Towers" symbolize spiritual culture of people, they both were destroyed as a symbol, by the same evil, from the same location on Earth. With respect to the material factor (size, greatness, etc.) I won't even comment.

I would let you know that long time before watching hours, days and months the tragedy in New York I lived for years a similar tragedy somewhere in this world, a much more deadlier tragedy. It was in Romania, when a mad dictator destroyed a third (!) of Bucharest, the capital of the country (2 million). One of the main residential areas with charming houses, villas, gardens, orchards and parks was crushed by bulldozers and rebuilt with a huge forest of 10-story ugly buildings. The house where I lived my most beautiful years, as a teenager and University student disappeared in one night. One of my best friends, my former swimming coach, died by heart attack after being evacuated from his house after a 24-hour notice. The suicide rate of Romanians became the highest in Europe. The number of victims of "that period" is estimated at 100,000..... You see, Barbara, you are not entitled to explain me "the horror set in motion etc. etc"

Your comment about defining "stolen art"



Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman.

"The only conclusion I come up with about you and another member of this forum stating similar definitions is just that-that you and he almost agree on what might be considered stolen art. That doesn't actually make it the definition, however"

There are two alternatives: You can not accept an evidence, or you did not pay enough atention at my comment. I hope it is the second case and I will review it. If reading my comment of September 30, 2003 and the comment of Michael Harris of September 29, 2003, it is obvious that both of us considered as the most important factor the time we proposed starting considering "stolen art" - Year 1900 . Of course, this will eliminate "the conquerors , grave-robbers and old-type thieves" but it will clarify the topic and...debate.

Last answer:


"I am dully warned...."

It was an old habit. When teaching Thermodynamics at the University of Bucharest, as an Associate Teacher, I often felt the attention of students dropping a bit when approaching the end of the class (I could read this in their eyes). In such situations I used to make a digression, very often a joke, in order to stimulate their sense of humor and, consequently to restore their atention. It worked. I did the same ending my comment for you. It was obviously a digression, close to a joke (see the [sic]; you used it too, but in a more sensitive manner). I couldn't image your sense of humor was inaccessible that day. It was an error that will never be repeated. "Erare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum".

Now, the conclusions:

- Barbara, I have no desire to continue in this way.

- I am firmly convinced that our energy and time would be better utilized if we concentrate on real issues when debating stolen art. Instead of long and useless rhetoric, let's debate actual issues, related to the topic. From many of them I could pick up as examples the current trend in painting theft (see the last robbery in Holland), the flood of antiquities stolen from Italy, the smuggling network of Romanian religious wooden icons etc.

- Let's choose carefully our words. Let's avoid the arena to be transformed in a lion den. Let's be constructive and not destructive.

I am proposing to bury the battle ax, and to smoke together the peace pipe (though I quit smoking several years ago). I am offering you an olive branch at the time when the Olympics approach and all the wars stop... You see, we could find a language that is antique and common at the same time.

Dragos

[Michael Harris]

Originally posted by Dragos Sfinteanu
The analogy mentioned by you is appropriate in my opinion : both subjects, Bamian Buddhas and "The Towers" symbolize spiritual culture of people, they both were destroyed as a symbol, by the same evil, from the same location on Earth. With respect to the material factor (size, greatness, etc.) I won't even comment. Your comment about defining "stolen art" ...
Dragos,

I had not looked on both as being representative of a spiritual culture of a people. I giess that both really are.

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Originally posted by Barbara Holtzman

"Clint Eastwood? When did he play a thief?"

Yes, Clint Eastwood played a thief. A big one (diamonds, jewellery, big money, golden Rollex wrist watches, etc.). Movie title: Absolute Power (2000... 2001).

In "The Eiger Sanctions" he had a "private" collection in the basement of his villa (Cezane, Renoir, Picasso...). He was an art
...."collector"

Dragos

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael, and please, any other Forum Member


I would like to know your opinion about the ethical issue concerning the following case.

Two years ago the well-known Sotheby’s company canceled an auction for the “Firebird” of Brancusi, expected to be sold for millions of dollars (n.a. Constantin Brancusi, sharing with Henry Moore the fame of the best sculptors in modern times, was a Romanian who worked first in Romania, letting behind wonders after moving in France when the communists seized the power in the country).

The Sotheby’s cancellation was motivated by a petition sent by the Romanian government and supported by two elements: the statue was included in the Romanian Art Patrimony (existing Romanian law forbidding the alienation of some labeled objects of art) and the fact that it was smuggled out of country. On the other side, the owner of the statue claimed that it was an inheritance from his parents.

One side of the ethical aspects shows a violation of the law, a particular one. The other side reflects a violation of a general law (property). The first side protects people. The other one – an individual.

My viewpoint about the issue could be altered by the desire to know the statue sheltered by a museum where people can see and admire it…

[Hugh H Wilder -]

Here in the U.S. we have property rights. This situation would depend on the States laws for property rights, inheritance, and other laws governing State art. Additionally any legal precedents would play a role as well international law.
I can include the Brooklyn bridge in my last will and testament, however that does not guarantee my children have a right to it!

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

That is an interesting issue.

In the US, we had a case recently in which a man who had inherited a hand-written original copy (one of many originals) of the Constitution. His ancestor had acquired it during the War Between the States (aka US Civil War).

Just because he had inherited it and it had been in his family for 140 years did not make it his. The court case could generate a plethora of problems. Could that dagger taken from the body of a dead Nazi officer be "stolen art"?

Possession does not mean anything right now.

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

I am totally satisfied by your conclusion. We have to make a clear distinction between an object/value of personal interest and a spiritual value. The second one should never be associated to an individual. It belongs to a group of people, sometimes to mankind.

Dragos

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

And that is what makes that second category so hard to deal with.

I would have no problem with hunting down the guy who stole my coworker's Picasso.

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

Did you have such coworker? Could we know the Picasso story?

Dragos

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

It was just to illustrate that I could go after an art thief who had stolen something whose provenance was clean.

I did have a coworker with a Picasso - a small one.

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

The anticipate pleasure of a Picasso story tempted me too much to avoid the trap.

By the way, I knew that it was a small one.

Dragos

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

The sad thing was that he had it in a vault at the bank. He did not even have it around to look at and appreciate - it was simply an investment. :(

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

For an art lover it vould be a blasphemy (keeping such a painting in a bank vault) .... Do you remember the famous "That Hamilton Woman" (Laurence Oliver - Vivian Leigh)... Lord Hamilton spending hours every evening in front of one of his paintings...?

For me it vould be an impossibility. I vould accept the risks of "stolen art" (like other ones, more stressful, debating the topic).

What about you?

Dragos

[Michael Harris]

Dragos,

My coworker was not an art lover, he was just a guy who happened to make a good investment.

Even if I did not want the risk of showing the art in my home, I would have made some arrangement with a museum to have them show it and assume the risk - the art would still be mine and would still appreciate in value. Besides, I could get a tax break and let the world see the beauty of the art work (with my name with it as benefactor - big ego boost).

[Dragos Sfinteanu]

Michael,

Until today I did not believe it could be a perfect solution in this world.

Dragos

[Linda Brown -]

Thanks for the links. They just might come in handy someday.

Again, thanks for sharing.

[James L Parmenter -]

I agree that art, antiques and archeological findings are a valuable part of a Countries history. The looting that followed Sudam's fall was a normal reaction of the citizens, yet i think the Military was wrong in allowing it to continue. Even though the citizens were freed it shouldn't give them free run of the capital city and its entire contents....under the circumstance I feel the US military should have protected the all the valuable works of art and Museum contents from the looters......

[Jerry Woytas]

First, my thank you to Sara and Michael for the links. This was one of the most interesting forums I have read, so far.

Second, I am impressed with the caliber of the conversation that took place here. I am very new to the PI thing and really have no comments to make, at this time. But, with the conversations taking place in these forums, my knowledge will grow and grow, quickly.

Again, thanks,

JeryLyn :)

[Michael Harris]

James,

I think that in any country, if the general public had a direct say in art and other cultural treasures, they would ignore them.

The public in the US does not care about our own cultural treasures. In Iran under the Shah, the Peacock Palace was a great art museum - the 'people' destroyed their own heritage.

[Victoria S Kinney]

Thank you on the interesting article regarding stolen art and also for the link. I definietly will be adding this to my lists.

[Jessica Rose O'Bryan -]

$5-billion a year, only second to drugs...that is a very interesting statistic.

[Greg Ray]

Art theft is bigger than most people realize. Sometimes, due to racial or ethnic cleansing, the items will be destroyed if it looks unfeasible to carry the loot out. It is very sad when this happens, as there is no way of getting it back. At least when priceless items are taken, there is some hope that the world will be able to view it again in the future. National Geographic did a story on this a few months back. I apologize that I do not have that issue number. It was only a couple of months back though. it didn't just have to do with artifacts, it also showcased ancient cave drawings that have been destroyed in the last ten years. Now the only way we can view this history is in pictures. SAD!